If this d-bag bought a better microphone so he didn't have to yell for 20 minutes I *might* be able to sit through his video.
But no promises.
Necessary precision to kill something
- Thread starter Huntnful
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If this d-bag bought a better microphone so he didn't have to yell for 20 minutes I *might* be able to sit through his video.
But no promises.
6.5x300 WBY
Well-Known Member
I know I couldn't. Too annoying.
Alex Wheeler
Well-Known Member
The argument can always be made that a big wind switch will have more effect than the grouping ability of the rifle. However the rifle has to group in a predictable way for you to know your limits. Its needs to shoot small to make up for our lack of ability to read the wind perfectly. Heres another fact that is left out. The majority of guys building long range rifles do not have easy access to the ranges to shoot long range and will never be able to build wind reading skills. Western wind is far different than wind on the eastern part of the country. In many ways its easier to work with because its not as switchy but it does push a lot harder. So even if you have a place to shoot, you may be shooting in very different types of conditions. Ideally you live out west and you shoot long range in the part of the state you hunt and you will get a good handle on things. That is not most people. But the thing everyone can do is get their rifle shooting small. Also, rifles typically shoot worse as distance increases. Things like es and bc variation add vertical but the biggest factor is that the tune narrows up as distance increases. Its very common for a good 100yd load to totally fall apart at long range. So when you start hear 1 moa accuracy, thats not 10 inches at 1k. Its most likely going to be way bigger. Its really easy to blame misses on wind, when the rifle is not shooting well at distance but it is at 100yds. None of this is to suggest a rifle will make up for lack of good wind calls but it sure does help a lot.
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Good words Alex. I've found it's easy for people to blame the rifle, the wind and then maybe their ability. Real world, in my experience rifles can generally way outshoot most shooters abilities.
The equipment gives people confidence to try shots that is outside their ability. This is true of archery as well rifles.
The equipment gives people confidence to try shots that is outside their ability. This is true of archery as well rifles.
And to further Mr Wheeler, 100yds gets the scope dialed in.
300 is good for preliminary load development.
500 tells me what I've got to work with, if 300 looks good.
Ladder tests have more value when the distance allows dispersion.
In my experience.
300 is good for preliminary load development.
500 tells me what I've got to work with, if 300 looks good.
Ladder tests have more value when the distance allows dispersion.
In my experience.
Huntnful
Well-Known Member
LRNut
Well-Known Member
I don't mean to be rude, but you obviously don't understand statistics. Let's make it easy: shoot your rifle once per day for 30 days at the same target. Measure your group. Now imagine those 30 shots are spread out over several hunting seasons and are first shot opportunities at animals. Suppose the 15th shot, the shot you took on day 15, hit 1 MOA left of your point of aim, but all others hit within 1/2 MOA. But that 15th shot was taken at a deer 900 yards away. That bullet would hit 9" left of aim resulting in a wounded deer. Or take one that hit 1/2 MOA left. It would hit 4.5" inches left, ostensibly good enough for a hit, right? Not if there was a 4 mph wind right to left- your wind call would have to be perfect, right? No, actually you would still have a 50% chance of killing that deer because your wind call could have been 6 mph, causing you to hold more than required, but since that bullet was one that hit way left, it lands dead center and you then post the picture and story on LRH and wait for the accolades to come pouring in from envious members.
I once shot a 3 shot 3/8 inch group at 200 yards sitting with a tight sling. Can I do it again? No. All three shots would have hit a ground squirrel. So what?
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Huntnful
Well-Known Member
double post *deleted*
This is why I do ten 3 shot groups over time on a cold barrel. It's more realistic. I might get a 1/4 moa group then a close to moa group. The average has wound up around .5-.6 on the rifles I've put together. I also use this as more data for a more accurate zero which is not often talked about. I also think a 1/2 moa bench gun is closer to moa in the field. And the podcast is right you need to shoot in field conditions which can be
Problematic for a flat lander going on a western hunt. Shooting from improvised positions at longer ranges is about it.
Before you get to the point you have the crosshairs on an animal you need to be able to confidently say "my shot will land within x" of my target at this range". You can't do that with 3, 5, or 10 shot groups. With a stochastic system, like a rifle, you can't accurately predict where a single data point will land. Even if you do everything exactly the same in a perfectly controlled environment with ammo that has no variation from one round to the next you cannot predict the exact place a bullet will land. That's just the nature of stochastic systems. The output is not determined solely by the input. However, the outcome of many samples is normally distributed, so with enough samples you can make predictions with a high level of confidence on the region a single sample will land in. The best you can do is look at a relatively large population and say "x% of my shots will land within this region". Over 30 shots you'll be able to predict where >90% of your shots will land.
It is important to consider how the rifle will be used and adjust your testing procedure accordingly. With a hunting rifle 30 cold bore shots makes more sense than a consecutive string of 30 shots. Sure, it takes a lot of time to shoot 30 cold bore shots, but if you want to know how precise your rifle is that's what it takes.
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"I can see a big differnce in hits and misses with even a 1/4 MOA vs 3/4 MOA rifle". This bears repeating, like comparing night and day! A 1/4 MOA Rifle at 600 is mind blowing, wind or no wind.
LRNut
Well-Known Member
The guy's point is your hunting rifle is not a 1/4 MOA rifle if you shoot 30 shots; the 1000 yard record benchrest ten shot aggregate is not even 1/4. The record heavy gun 30 shot aggregate is 2.0057", or .33 MOA. So if you are doing better than that, you need to start collecting some ribbons and trophies.
But I agree, a rifle that shoots groups three times larger than another one is going to be more difficult to connect at long range.
Marky_mark
Well-Known Member
These guys just skew the data to get a result that they think is favourable. Shrink the target size from 14" to 10" or 8" and accuracy and precision becomes a big factor. They did the same thing years ago on the prb how much does it matter series. Somehow they were able to shoot groups under 1.5 moa. Accuracy and precision matter when you want to hit small targets far away. And that's what you're looking to do when you go hunting. Good luck with your 2 moa rifle on a ibex hunt lol
Stokesrjsr
Well-Known Member
Most hunters, have never shot enough to really learn to shoot to the potential of even a one MOA capable gun system, and I put myself in this category for much of my 60+ year hunting career. I am a US Distinguished Rifleman and have had the privilege of leading the Florida State High Power rifle team for enough years to see what it took for a beginning shooter to master a rifle. It took an average around 6,000 rounds with quality feedback to achieve High Master. How many hunters do you think have mastered their rifle?
Learning to read the wind was one of the requirements and that was under more or less ideal conditions of a range which most, but not all, were relatively flat with a wind value that was constant across the full distance of the range.
For EIC or Leg matches, no sighters are allowed and when traveling to distant shooting ranges with different environmental conditions, even the best of the best would some times shoot a nine or eight at 600 yards on the first shot. For those of you unfamiliar with high power targets, an eight would be a miss by 9"-12". And I have seen national Champions do this.
Mountain hunting conditions are far more difficult than range conditions yet in spite of this I have personally managed to take many head of big game at long range. Some I know were just plain old good luck in that shooting errors were in my favor.
As an example I shot a Stone's sheep in British Columbia at long range with my 6.5 STW and misjudged the wind enough to hit the sheep just in front of the hip. But for some strange reason the bullet deflected on this sheep that was standing broadside and deflected enough that it exited through the off shoulder and resulted in a quick kill. It easily could have been an inhumane shot.
That Stone's sheep was more than 20 years ago and completed my grand slam. But now I know a lot more about long range shooting than I did then, and have much more capable equipment than I did then, but the distances and conditions I feel comfortable taking a shot on big game has reduced by several hundred yards. Just sharing my journey and learning on long range hunting, take it for what it's worth.
Learning to read the wind was one of the requirements and that was under more or less ideal conditions of a range which most, but not all, were relatively flat with a wind value that was constant across the full distance of the range.
For EIC or Leg matches, no sighters are allowed and when traveling to distant shooting ranges with different environmental conditions, even the best of the best would some times shoot a nine or eight at 600 yards on the first shot. For those of you unfamiliar with high power targets, an eight would be a miss by 9"-12". And I have seen national Champions do this.
Mountain hunting conditions are far more difficult than range conditions yet in spite of this I have personally managed to take many head of big game at long range. Some I know were just plain old good luck in that shooting errors were in my favor.
As an example I shot a Stone's sheep in British Columbia at long range with my 6.5 STW and misjudged the wind enough to hit the sheep just in front of the hip. But for some strange reason the bullet deflected on this sheep that was standing broadside and deflected enough that it exited through the off shoulder and resulted in a quick kill. It easily could have been an inhumane shot.
That Stone's sheep was more than 20 years ago and completed my grand slam. But now I know a lot more about long range shooting than I did then, and have much more capable equipment than I did then, but the distances and conditions I feel comfortable taking a shot on big game has reduced by several hundred yards. Just sharing my journey and learning on long range hunting, take it for what it's worth.
