Muzzleloader Pass Through Bullets and SD

[mnoland30]

What weight and hardness of bullet do you use?

 

[tankgijohn72]

2nd the parker match hunter. I shoot 275 MH out of a CVA, at 1950-2000fps MV. It will go through an elk at 200 yards. Let my buddy use it on a buck and watched him put it through a buck at 190 yards on a hard quartering towards shot. Went through front shoulder and approximately 30" of animal before exiting in front of rear quarter. Have killed multiple deer with it. It does expand much better when hitting bone, it is not a fast expansion bullet. But does have a high BC that I have drop verified to 400 yds.

 

[mnoland30]

I guess I'll have to try some. Thank you. What powder are you using to get 2000 fps?

 

[tankgijohn72]

Blackhorn 209. 115 gr. CCI mag 209 primer. Clean bore MV is approx. 1870. After a few fouling shots MV is up to 1975-2000. They are designed for smokeless muzzleloaders, so like I mentioned before better to put through a shoulder to help expansion. At 400 yards I would not expect expansion with my MV. I have just shot them that far. Accuracy out of my CVA is approximately a softball at 200 yards. Its not a magic bullet, but it does shoot well in my gun. This will act more like an all copper or a heavy hard cast bullet in that it always seems to go through. I have yet to find one in an animal. So far 7 deer and a black bear with them.

 

[ATH]

I haven't tried the FTX 325, but I know from lots of experience with plastic tipped bullets that they don't leave enough of an entrance wound to bleed, and 325 gr. generally isn't enough sectional density to penetrate well. It isn't that they won't kill an elk, it is just that the elk can run away without a blood trail. I'm not a good enough tracker to follow a bloodless trail far on our rocky ground once they stop running. I shoot a lot before the season, and a price of $2 per bullet inhibits that in retirement. The slower the bullet, the less expansion, and the better the penetration. I've been concentrating on hitting bone the past few elk hunts, and that has worked very well, but I'd like the insurance of a blood trail if I don't hit bone. I'm convinced that heavier bullets are the answer, but nobody makes a fast twist muzzleloader that will stabilize a 500 gr. bullet. I'm thinking about having a custom rifle built with a 1:20 twist.

So you are going to contradict my recommendation based on actual experience killing many animals with a bullet based on a lack of experience with that bullet, extrapolating from very different bullets, sharing on the plastic tip as a similarity?

Alrighty then. Have at it. If you've shot a bunch of elk you didn't recover, I bet it wasn't the lack of an exit wound, but rather poor placement.

 

[mnoland30]

ATH, Maybe I misunderstood. How many elk did you say you've killed with the FTX bullets?Deer and elk are very different. Every deer I've shot with my muzzleloader dropped in its tracks.

A shot at 20 yards is very different than 200 yards. You didn't mention velocity, but assuming a velocity of 2000 fps. that is a muzzle energy of 2886. At 200 yards that energy is 1696 ft-lbs. Up to a certain point, penetration increases as velocity decreases (but effectiveness decreases).

Are you saying you get an entrance wound that bleeds with these bullets?

No doubt that I've missed some shots, my lament is that I don't really know how many. If there isn't a blood trail, and I can't track them, there is no way to know if it was a complete miss or just a poor hit. With a large entry and exit wound, I would know, and have a chance for a follow up shot. Even with a hollow point 405 gr. bullet, the lung shot cow elk I shot in Dec. ran 50 yards with no blood trail. But even I can track an elk for 50 yards.

 

[mnoland30]

Threaded Barrel, I'm curious why you aim low?

 

[1Moose]

mnoland30, I may be in a different boat being on Colorado giving the primitive muzzleloader requirements (full bore diameter projectiles, iron sights), but I've found success with the Thor bullets for elk. I know they are based on Barnes bullets, but I've now successfully harvested 5 elk with them (and one pronghorn so far). The longest shot I've taken is 140-145 yards, and from the lack of expansion I saw in that bullet, I've modified my personal limit for elk to 125 yards. It killed well, but it was a smaller elk and I wonder if it would have still been a quick and ethical kill on a brute of an elk. I expect not, so I've now set a 125 yard limit. But, for 125 yards and under, I'm getting outstanding results with them. I have only had one pass-through and that would have been at around 35-40 yards. Ironically, it was also my worst shot as I was in the process of getting up to relocate (get warm really), and he spotted me. I have no idea how he got that close to me without my noticing, so I was leaning at an awkward angle and had to time my shot between two trees, so I was almost too far back. But it got lungs still and he went down. I digress though... I'm using a Thompson Center Pro Hunter FX. I nearly threw that rifle off a cliff after trying the umpteenth bullet in it. Those Thors hold their accuracy for me, and off of bags I see 3 inch groups at 100 yards with my peep sights. 100 grains of BH209, which has more energy than most powders I know of. Any more than that, and the groups go haywire. Expensive bullets, and I suspect you'll want to shoot sabots.

This year's bull (below) was taken at 116 yard shot. 447 pounds at the processor fully dressed (only upper leg bones included in weight, excluded the tenderloins, and we left tremendous amounts of fat in the field--he was eating well). I know this isn't bull elk show and tell, but now I'm excited about thinking about hunting again next year...

 

[Threadedbarrel]

Threaded Barrel, I'm curious why you aim low?

Not super low, but most shots are a little up hill or down hill, and in ether of those cases, the rifle will shoot high. I try to hit the heart and lungs, so I'm shooting at the lower part of the front of the chest. This is all IMHO

 

[Threadedbarrel]

What weight and hardness of bullet do you use?

I have no idea, I'm throwing wheel weights in a lead melting furnace, then hardening them by dropping them in water. All I can tell you is if I took a normal FMJ lead bullet and smashed with a hammer it would mushroom-out flat. If I did the same thing to a hard cast bullet it would pound it self into the table like a nail. There are several things that can be done to make bullets harder of softer, and hopefully not blow the gun up.

 

[Snyper708]

Not super low, but most shots are a little up hill or down hill, and in ether of those cases, the rifle will shoot high.

Have you been shooting targets at those angles to see how high it shoots, or are you just guessing?

Unless the angles are extreme you really won't see much difference.

 

[Threadedbarrel]

Have you been shooting targets at those angles to see how high it shoots, or are you just guessing?

The way you typed that does not in-courage a positive response. Reading is a skill

 

[Snyper708]

The way you typed that does not in-courage a positive response. Reading is a skill

It's a yes or no question.

Writing is a skill also.
I encourage you to not do it while using ether.

But enough about grammar lessons.
Now, have you actually shot targets at those angles to see how high it shoots, or are you just guessing at the holds?

 

[mnoland30]

I purchased a Sig Sauer Kilo 2000 last year, and it gives me the horizontal range and will range an elk out to about 800 yards. That, combined with a Ballistic Reticle Nikon scope, lets me aim right on out to 200 meters.

I read guys on other forums that are shooting Sharps Pedersoli Black Powder 45-120 rifles with 1:20 twist and 500 gr. bullets. They routinely drop bison at 200 to 300 yards. Seems like we should be able to do the same to elk. Part of the problem is that muzzleloaders have been standardized with 1:28 twist barrels, which handle up to about 350 gr. bullets fine, but not the heavier bullets. That twist and weight work great on deer, but not that well on elk. I am convinced that a sectional density of .280 or better is optimum for penetration. There isn't a popular muzzleloader bullet on the market that has that high a sectional density. My .458 405 gr. bullets come close, and I've had the best results with them. Four elk DRT and one that went 50 yards.

I'm considering having a custom barrel built for my Encore in 1:20 twist. I'm a little spoiled with the 30" 1:26 barrel on my Kahnke, and haven't found anyone who makes one that long for the Encore.