Motivation for ML hunting restrictions

[6.5x300 WBY]

Lol. BH is 1.5 seconds
Smokless is 1 sec at 800.

 

[JAYgs8163]

Yup and

Lol. BH is 1.5 seconds
Smokless is 1 sec at 800.

yup but it's also half the drop at 800.

 

[MtPockets]

Great question. You could ask the same of the traditionalists. For myself, I hunt all firearm seasons with a muzzleloader and have done so for decades, with one partial year change.
About 5yrs ago, I did hunt and harvest a nice whitetail with a 450 Bushmaster during the general season. However, I used a muzzleloader during the designated "Muzzleloader Season", to harvest a second buck. The only reason I used the Bushmaster was because the scope I was using on my muzzleloader was in to Leupold for repairs.

I've said it before and will again. A known fact is hunter numbers across the country are actually dropping considerably. Hunter numbers using muzzleloaders are dropping like a rock. Oh, by the way, how many muzzleloader manufacturers are left? In many states they are now allowing "straight wall cartridge rifles" to be used during the "muzzleloader season".
Young people, having any choice, would never use a rotary phone over their "Smartphone". Most now days have never seen a rotary phone, soon to be a museum piece.

We should be encouraging and supporting ALL firearms, not debating rather one firearm is ethical for this or that and another isn't. If one doesn't understand the WHY in that, our shooting and hunting sports are in dire jeopardy.

You make some very good points and to be clear, I'm not saying don't use the gun. That thing sounds over the top impressive.
The point I (and I think others, too) are trying to make is that the muzzleloader seasons exist because a few people that enjoyed the challenge of sneaking into close range got together and asked for a special season where they didnt have to compete with the high powered rifles.
The advancement in muzzleloader technology is absolutely astounding, as your rifle so clearly shows. I don't blame you for taking advantage of what is offered but as a guy who quit muzzleloader hunting because of changes to the sport, I'm glad that my home state made our ML season a traditional one.

 

[ENCORE]

You make some very good points and to be clear, I'm not saying don't use the gun. That thing sounds over the top impressive.
The point I (and I think others, too) are trying to make is that the muzzleloader seasons exist because a few people that enjoyed the challenge of sneaking into close range got together and asked for a special season where they didnt have to compete with the high powered rifles.
The advancement in muzzleloader technology is absolutely astounding, as your rifle so clearly shows. I don't blame you for taking advantage of what is offered but as a guy who quit muzzleloader hunting because of changes to the sport, I'm glad that my home state made our ML season a traditional one.

Hunting today is FAR different than "back in the day". Private property means exactly that now. City dwellers wanting a piece of the quiet life, moved to the countryside and bought up any available land. Farmers sold frontage, then acreage. The farmer's children didn't want to farm anymore and when the old farmers passed, they split and sold off the farms.
When I was a youngster, I could start out from the farm in the morning, cross properly line after properly line of our neighbors, who also did the same. If I were to meet up with a neighbor in the marsh, we'd start hunting together. When it was time to head home, I might be 5miles from the farm. I'd unload and start walking home down the road. Normally the first, maybe the second car that came by, stopped and picked me up and took me home.

TRY THAT TODAY!

If.............. one has the property available to them, then sneaking into range is a possibility. However, I dare say that likely 80% of the country now days is made up of smaller acreage, not 10's of thousands like some large ranches out west. Regardless of the state east of the Miss., state lands look like pumpkin patches. Fights, arguments, parking issues, prevail. Private land owners argue and fight with their neighbors over hunting rights and QDM.

Yes, there's advancements made in muzzleloading, archery, and firearms in general. Those who want to dress the part and use a flint or percussion, can certainly do that in any of the firearm seasons. I applaud those hunters. I started out like that and have been hunting with a muzzleloader since "73". Today I prefer modern and their abilities.

So............... we have pumpkin patches, fights, arguments and the such, just over hunting itself. And guess what? Now we're arguing over rather a hunter can use a modern inline or a scope.

Believe me, the anti's are reading these posts, just as the DNR or wildlife officers. Divide and conquer?

 

[MtPockets]

You and I grew up in very similar circumstances. I feel bad for todays youth, and even more so for tomorrows. They will never know the freedoms we all enjoyed- and took for granted.

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

Hunting today is FAR different than "back in the day". Private property means exactly that now. City dwellers wanting a piece of the quiet life, moved to the countryside and bought up any available land. Farmers sold frontage, then acreage. The farmer's children didn't want to farm anymore and when the old farmers passed, they split and sold off the farms.
When I was a youngster, I could start out from the farm in the morning, cross properly line after properly line of our neighbors, who also did the same. If I were to meet up with a neighbor in the marsh, we'd start hunting together. When it was time to head home, I might be 5miles from the farm. I'd unload and start walking home down the road. Normally the first, maybe the second car that came by, stopped and picked me up and took me home.

TRY THAT TODAY!

If.............. one has the property available to them, then sneaking into range is a possibility. However, I dare say that likely 80% of the country now days is made up of smaller acreage, not 10's of thousands like some large ranches out west. Regardless of the state east of the Miss., state lands look like pumpkin patches. Fights, arguments, parking issues, prevail. Private land owners argue and fight with their neighbors over hunting rights and QDM.

Yes, there's advancements made in muzzleloading, archery, and firearms in general. Those who want to dress the part and use a flint or percussion, can certainly do that in any of the firearm seasons. I applaud those hunters. I started out like that and have been hunting with a muzzleloader since "73". Today I prefer modern and their abilities.

So............... we have pumpkin patches, fights, arguments and the such, just over hunting itself. And guess what? Now we're arguing over rather a hunter can use a modern inline or a scope.

Believe me, the anti's are reading these posts, just as the DNR or wildlife officers. Divide and conquer?

Don't forget about the taxes & medical bills going up every year forcing the older farmers to sell off acreage to keep just a few acres of what used to be a couple hundred acre farm. And then the tougher restrictions on what crops could be planted & where. God forbid you cross pollinate someone else crops.

 

[Sam Aspacher]

NM will be banning scopes on muzzleloaders beginning this fall. Here is their rationalization:

"Stewart Liley, head biologist for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, told commissioners on Friday that recent improvements in muzzleloader technology have made the guns nearly as efficient as centerfire rifles. If the commission wanted to continue to allow the use of scoped muzzleloaders in designated muzzleloader seasons, he said the commission would have to reduce the number of permits it offers to avoid unsustainable losses to game herds.

(IMO fewer permits is preferable to eliminating scopes)

"What we're seeing biologically is that the harvest is going to be unsustainable," Liley said of the prospect of continuing to allow scoped muzzleloaders during designated muzzleloader seasons.

Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders.

(Yea right and irons sights are going to help with hits)

Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots.
(IMO this is a lame excuse)

Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry cast the lone votes against the change on muzzleloaders. She said she was dissatisfied with the game department's public education efforts on the issue and said she was concerned that 17,000 muzzleloader hunters will find out next year that they don't have a chance to use their scoped muzzleloaders anymore."

from this article:

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...

nmwildlife.org

Thanks for sharing. Type of info I was hoping to find.
Was surprised to see so much opposition from the LRH community. If LR Muzzleloading has any home, would have expected it to be here.
Want to share my few experiences with Muzzleloader hunting. First hunt I took part in was an Elk hunt my Dad drew in Arizona. He carried an open sight, 50 caliber Hawkins. He and I spent all summer testing different bullets and practicing with it before settling on a 300gr Hornady, I believe around 1800fps but cant remember for sure. We spotted a bull at 5-600 yards and stalked into around 180 yards then set up and shot. I watched over his shoulder till the cloud of smoke engulfed us, then helped him reload. My cousin called over the radio that the bull went down. We waited awhile then crossed the draw and approached the bull. As we got to around 20 yards we heard the bull stand up above us. My Dad was ready and took a follow up shot then the bull ran out of sight over the hill. We regrouped and gave him time before following a long faint blood trail that we eventually lost. We never found the bull and my Dad did not fill his tag. 15 some years later we decided to do another muzzleloader hunt, this time mule deer in UT. For this trip we purchased a .45 caliber Knight and installed a 6x Leopold on it. With the .275gr XLD and BH209 I think it is around 2250 fps. I took a buck on our last day at 60-70 yards. He died almost immediately even though the shot was back. The last experience was a similar outcome on a Coues buck my Dad shot. Think it was 140-150 yards and the buck was dead before he hit the ground.
Now would we have lost that bull years ago had we been using the Knight and 6x scope? I really think he would have been dead after the first shot. To me the Knight is just as efficient as my other rifles and I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

[asd9055]

It's funny how people will twist words to fit their purpose. There is NO opposition to ML Long range hunting at all. But if you are using technology to have a ML perform like a CF, then hunt in the regular season. Otherwise, we all want our special seasons for any excuses we find.

 

[blueprairiedog]

And what will happen when they tell us no bottle necks and no shots over 150 yards.???I don't own a crossbow and I can't use a compound bow anymore.I love to hunt with my old original Knight and 3x9 scope.Don't forget to vote and stay engaged with local government.

 

[JMB 1911]

Personally, I detest affirmative action in any form. There are locations where population densities require archery gear for management but with that exception seasons should be open and if you want to hunt with inferior gear that is your option.

Our current system is forcing people into ML and archery just for the opportunity to hunt.

I have harvested game with all of those methods including my bare hands and knife, but I am a rifleman.

The current lottery and animal harassed and wounded by bow hunters for weeks before gun season opens is ludicrous.

 

[Moondoggie]

I also have short and not very well timed seasons. No one mentioned Youtube and other internet media including Forums. Yes, the government uses the internet to see what is going on. So many poaching cases made right off social media. The equipment is 1000 times better than it was 20 years ago, and yes more people are killing animals then ever before. Bottom line is the internet information has made it able to happen. Yes I am guilty of perpetuating the problem. I wanted a 300yd muzzle loader capable of killing elk at 300yds. Easy got on the internet and boom had a Bestill in my hands shortly after. No optics just long range iron sights, and the rifle is very capable of 300yd accuracy and energy for deer and elk. Did I mention I have my range finder to know exact yardage?

I am not on here telling anyone what to do, but I would never, ever take a 300 yard shot with iron sights! I mean, come on, you ain't Wild Bill Hitchcock.

 

[bscman]

I'm in Washington state.

Our season is quite primitively and always has been. They allow do fiberoptic and peeps, but no scopes or red dots of any kind.

Two years ago there was a push to allow red dots, or glass optics with crosshairs as long as they didn't magnify--and the muzzle loader groups spoke up and that proposal was squashed. So overall our muzzleloader groups are fighting to maintain a primitively season.

Heck, they just started letting us use 209 primers a couple years ago. Prior to that all muzzleloaders had to use traditional nipple and cap AND they had to be exposed to the elements. It was getting difficult to find an inline muzzle loader that was actually WA legal--that was the only reason WDFW went for the change.

Personally I LOVE the added restrictions on muzzle loader season. It keeps the crowds down and the game less pressured. Approximately 3% of deer hunters choose a muzzle loader tag in the units I hunt. That means we can have most trailheads to ourself, there are little to no road hunters, and the deer actually act like deer.

And let's be honest... a modern inline muzzle loader, shooting saboted bullets, over 110+gr of buckhorn, using 209 primers, and a quality set of peep sights, is easily capable of accurate shots to WELL over double the distance of a traditional muzzle loader.... IN FACT, we feel a little bit dirty these days packing around a long fluted barreled, fast twist, 209 primed, peep sighted muzzle loader. It feels like cheating...

 

[bscman]

I agree with you sir, people are going to take risky shots no matter what they use. Imo when states issue tags they should consider the tag filled, this way big game herds would have a better success rate, but fascist greed always gets in the way.

If game departments issue tags with the assumption "the tag WILL be filled" you will be SEVERELY limiting the number of tags sold.
That idea would completely eliminate over the counter hunts, or would force a DRASTIC reduction in season length.

Every game department for the last 100 years has used weapon type and season length (and season timing) in order to control success rates.
It has always been a balance of allowing as much participation as an area can handle, while also not over harvesting animals in the same area.

Limiting the tags sold has other unintended consequences. Goodbye game law enforcement dollars, goodbye tourist revenue for rural towns, etc.

The simply fact is available habitat is shrinking. Hunting methods, tools, and technologies are improving.

I'd very much rather hunt with a handicapped muzzle loader for my normal 8 day early season and three week long late season EVERY YEAR than be told I can use a 400yd fancy scoped muzzlenloder once every four years when And if I'm lucky enough to draw a tag.

 

[boston85018]

Same reason crossbows aren't allowed in real archery seasons? (In most places anyway).

I think it sucks, I have a nice in-line that I bought to use in AZ. Now in Montana they just started a ML season but it's super traditional. They're not selling more tags, this is an after the fact hunt on general tags.

I think traditional equipment, which MLs are, should remain range limited, that's part of the reason you can get the tag easier, it's supposed to be harder. If not, they should just get rid of the ML tags and make them rifle tags.

IMHO most ML ranges are maxed out at 200 yards and a lot more at 150, most ML hunters cant afford the $1500.00 ML rifle or ones that cost $5k+ that can reach out over 500 yards, but the fact that they want to limit everything to primitive style better be ready for a lot of injured animals dying without being harvested by the shooter, and the research numbers will show a huge drop in filled tags and available animals. just like an adjustable stock on an AR platform does it increase accuracy yes but that's only because the platform makes the rifle more comfortable for the shooter, same scenario with a scoped ML it makes the shooter more comfortable with his shot placement leading to a more ethical harvest.