Motivation for ML hunting restrictions

[M1A1ABRAMS]

NM will be banning scopes on muzzleloaders beginning this fall. Here is their rationalization:

"Stewart Liley, head biologist for the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, told commissioners on Friday that recent improvements in muzzleloader technology have made the guns nearly as efficient as centerfire rifles. If the commission wanted to continue to allow the use of scoped muzzleloaders in designated muzzleloader seasons, he said the commission would have to reduce the number of permits it offers to avoid unsustainable losses to game herds.

(IMO fewer permits is preferable to eliminating scopes)

"What we're seeing biologically is that the harvest is going to be unsustainable," Liley said of the prospect of continuing to allow scoped muzzleloaders during designated muzzleloader seasons.

Liley said he expects that loss of animals to wounding by muzzleloaders may decrease under the prohibition against scoped muzzleloaders.

(Yea right and irons sights are going to help with hits)

Although scopes allow hunters to hit animals at long range, he said the animals may not give any indication that they've been hit so hunters may not follow up all their shots.
(IMO this is a lame excuse)

Commissioner Roberta Salazar-Henry cast the lone votes against the change on muzzleloaders. She said she was dissatisfied with the game department's public education efforts on the issue and said she was concerned that 17,000 muzzleloader hunters will find out next year that they don't have a chance to use their scoped muzzleloaders anymore."

from this article:

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...

nmwildlife.org

Wonder why the only number you see is the ML hunters ? No harvest report on how many were taken with scoped ML or primitive. All of this should be factored in to make a logical decision IMO.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I wonder how some people will feel when they make using LR rifles illegal for any type of hunting ? Or put caliber restrictions in place. Or you can only use straight wall cartridges. Or possibly you can only hunt with shotguns as a few States have been doing. Or no lead. I hate to limit someones ability to do something as long as their actions are not hurting anyone else. I would like to see the number of animals taken in ML season with these long range ML to see if the actions imposed are even justifiable. Or is this a just in case scenario with ML ?

I agree completely with this thinking as well with regards to muzzleloaders. I'm pretty sure the overall hunt harvest data is out there. Most states though could not get a accurate survey about what "type" of muzzleloader used. Many states don't even require you to complete a harvest survey. It's optional in Arizona. I can't talk for other states.

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

I suspect greed is closer to right. Plus possibly the move toward woke attitude entering all gov. Departments. If his reasoning was truelly that muzzle loader were as effective as center fire then why not just say season opened sooner, but iron sights only?

I personally use scopes because of sight impairment, so I guess we need to start a class action suite with ADA against the Wild life department for visually impairment discrimination!

As stated in the article,
Jesse Deubel, executive director of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation, said the group supports the prohibition of scopes on muzzleloaders. He said the NMWF focuses on providing more hunting opportunity for resident hunters. Deubel noted that the game deparment director has authority to provide reasonable accommodation to hunters with documented vision issues.
But who knows how hard that will be ?

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

I agree completely with this thinking as well with regards to muzzleloaders. I'm pretty sure the overall hunt harvest data is out there. Most states though could not get a accurate survey about what "type" of muzzleloader used. Many states don't even require you to complete a harvest survey. It's optional in Arizona. I can't talk for other states.

Maybe this is where they should have started ? Wanting harvest reports with which type of ML was used.

 

[340Wby-4-everything]

My muzzleloader is a rifle and I would much rather hunt and use my smokless muzzleloader over a center fire rifle anyways. 800 yards is plenty far enough for me to go long with my Smokless muzzleloader so I would be perfectly happy if allowed to do just that

Completely agree

Ok so to be clear, get a Centerfire Rifle. Your muzzle loader is not that. And 800 yds with a ML - yeah ok if you say so.

 

[Allen Lone wolf]

Well I guess it's my turn to chime I'm. I think most of us can agree seasons and methods were set to allow hunters who love to hunt with traditional equipment and except the challenge of doing so a opportunity to test their skills and enjoy their methods of the sport. I think in my opinion the industry has seized the opportunity to push the boundaries of technology into the primitive hunters sport to fatten their profits. It has now came to a point that you can hardly tell the difference between a muzzle loader and a high powered rifle as far as its proficiency. The same can be said for archery. Where do you draw the line? If you entered a competitive match with a traditional muzzleloader and you were competing beside someone with a scoped inline how would you really feel? If you choose to shoot with all the bells and whistles then you should be waiting for the regular season to come.

 

[Muddyboots]

Let me see if I understand the ML hunters arguments. You want to make your ML with all modern technology as close as possible to a centerfire rifle, scopes, powders, bullets, etc., but you still want your special season. I am sorry, can't agree with that. Just one man's opinion. Want all the modrn technolgy, hunt in the regular season and challenge yourself with it on the ML

And this is exactly what happens when technology advancements becomes detrimental to a specific sport. IMO this is one. Technology grew faster than game departments ability to comprehend the technology advances and react. If ML'ers were still using black powder and or synthetic black powder, there would be zero issues. IMO smokeless powder belongs in CF or if used in ML'er, use in CF rifle seasons only. If game departments understood the nuances of the ML'er there would not be such knee jerk reaction. The lack of understanding of percussion caps versus 209 versus CF primers is all part of the problem. This should have been just "define the ML weapon" to meet more primitive season requirements.

Managing the "weapon" for specific season should be easy peasy but it is not for game department's. Which is why this regulation was passed.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

Ok so to be clear, get a Centerfire Rifle. Your muzzle loader is not that. And 800 yds with a ML - yeah ok if you say so.

You just have no clue. But that's ok. .not everyone knows.

 

[M1A1ABRAMS]

Ok so to be clear, get a Centerfire Rifle. Your muzzle loader is not that. And 800 yds with a ML - yeah ok if you say so

Actually it's quite impressive. IMO http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/lrml

 

[LRNut]

You just have no clue. But that's ok. .not everyone knows.

Really? Where do you shoot at 800 in NJ? I have a gong at 760 (closest to 800) that I shoot at every day. I also shoot at 620. The TOF difference between the two shooting high BC bullets fast (28N/195, 300 RUM/225, 338LM or Edge/285/300) is enough to significantly elevate my wind misses when the wind is not constant (which it almost never is past 5 mph). I almost never miss at 620 no matter what the wind is doing, but 760 and farther is another story. I have a wind flag at my shooting site and if the wind is gusting enough to move it from 10 deg to 30 or 40 in one second, I know even a perfect wind call can result in a wind miss (I video every shot I take and analyze the vapor trails) simply because the wind can change during the TOF.

I can't imagine how ugly it would look with a low BC bullet at low MV at 800 yards.

 

[ENCORE]

................................................... I can't imagine how ugly it would look with a low BC bullet at low MV at 800 yards.

Bullets being shot at long range, specifically 800, 900 and 1,000yds do not have a low BC. Yes, that's 800 to 1,000yds. Modern inline rifles do it quite well and........ with restrictions on propellants, which all must be BP or BP substitutes.

Long range matches to 1,000yds started last June, then one in September and now another next weekend.
BPCR and modern inlines shoot together at 800yds, 900yds and 3 relays at 1,000yds.
Camp Atterbury in Indiana will be covered in smoke this next weekend, June 10th and 11th.

The bullet in the photo below has a very high BC, actually .270 - G8. Its a 45cal and weighs 350grs. It is extremely accurate to 1,000yds, shot with 120grs VOLUME of BH209.

With the maximum charge of 120grs VOLUME of BH, a 40moa mount is used and then it takes 61.5moa to hit at 1,000yds.
This bullet will kill any animal in North America.

 

[mnoland30]

Jesse Deubel agreed with reintroducing the wolves that are decimating our deer herds in NM. We have the Mexican gray wolf here that isn't as much a threat to elk as to deer.

It would have been just as effective to limit ML season to Pyrodex only. Percussion caps only, or even sabotless. But it would be harder to enforce. An officer can sit on a mountain and tell if you have a scope from 1/2 mile. As a retired government employee, I can tell you most gov't employees are lazy. I can compensate a little for my eyesight by using a peep sight, but my groups open considerbly. Definitely age discrimination.

I'm hoping the number of applicants for muzzleloader season went down enough this year to make the G&F folks change their mind.

A few years back they said a buck had to have 3 points on a side counting the eye guards. I spent 30 minutes looking through my spotting scope trying to figure out if a big forked muley had any. He didn't. They had enough people shooting forks and leaving them lie (this is NM) that they changed the rule in short order.

You talk about waiting for rifle season. The wait can be years. The better odds of drawing for muzzleloader season are the reason I bought one. I can tell you it was trial and error to figure out what my effective range was. I've shot deer at 300 yards, but won't do it again. I've been through numerous bullets looking for an adequate elk load for 220 yard. Finally went to 405 gr. .45-70 bullets. Most ML bullets are made for deer.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

Really? Where do you shoot at 800 in NJ? I have a gong at 760 (closest to 800) that I shoot at every day. I also shoot at 620. The TOF difference between the two shooting high BC bullets fast (28N/195, 300 RUM/225, 338LM or Edge/285/300) is enough to significantly elevate my wind misses when the wind is not constant (which it almost never is past 5 mph). I almost never miss at 620 no matter what the wind is doing, but 760 and farther is another story. I have a wind flag at my shooting site and if the wind is gusting enough to move it from 10 deg to 30 or 40 in one second, I know even a perfect wind call can result in a wind miss (I video every shot I take and analyze the vapor trails) simply because the wind can change during the TOF.

I can't imagine how ugly it would look with a low BC bullet at low MV at 800 yards.

I dont yet. But I was talking about the rifles capabilities not mine or where I shoot. Nj does have a 600 yard range that I am working on becoming a member. But I am referring to what these smokless muzzleloaders are capable of. Thats all. I am way to new in sml as I have about 75 shots down the tube that's all. But I know it's capabilities not mine YET

 

[257Tony]

Here is some Data for you. Utah general season MZ hunts, before and after allowing magnifying scopes. Scopes greater than 1x were allwoed beginning in 2016.

2013
30.7% success

2014
31.1% success

2015
34.5% success

End of scope restrictions---32.1% average (no date available prior to 2013)

____________________

2016
39.3% success

2017
33.5% success

2018
37.5% success

2019
27% success

2020
30.1% success

2021
38.1% success
_____________________

34.25% average....... It's just data, you draw your own conclusions.