Most potent long range elk cartridge with .473 bolt face

[FEENIX]

I'mbuilding another hunting rifle. I was wanting a long range boomer like a 338 edge to kill elk out to 900yds, but I ended up with a #4 30 cal 1-10" twist barrel and a standard long action. I also have a 7mm 1-8" twist #5 barrel. I am guessing that the hardest hitting cartridge with this combo would either be the 30-06 Sherman or the 280 Sherman but maybe there are other options out there. I don't really like the idea of having to fire form all my brass first though. Would I just be better off swapping bolts with someone and building a 300 win mag or 300 PRC?

This is really a loaded post, so let's simplify it a little bit. Your subject says "Most potent long range elk cartridge with .473 bolt face" so, .300 WM and .300 PRC are out. You do not like the idea of fire-forming first before, so your SS consideration is out. I am no expert but this leaves .30-06 AI and .280 AI seems to be your best options. I am in no way suggesting which way to go, just trying to simplify things to help you in your decision-making process.

The most potent factor regardless of chambering is the "NUT" behind the trigger. BTW, I originally was going to have my .30-06 re-chambered to AI but went with .30 Gibbs instead ("my" personal choice).

 

[Westernhuntr]

I think every cartridge here is a great choice. Sorry that 6.5 caused a bad experience tracking the animal but IMO any lung shot is deadly BUT the animal can cover alot of ground after being hit thru the lungs. Some drop within 20 yards and some go 400 yards. I've experienced it with both archery and rifles. It could have been a 30 caliber round that caused it. One thing I will say, it wasn't because it was a heavy 6.5 unless it was a Grendel. Any 6.5 with enough juice to make a hard impact at nearly 1K will get it done on an elk. Many do not or may not want to agree or use one but from experience, I can tell you they work very effectively. I've killed 4 elk with a 6.5-284 and 2 were at over 800 yards and both dropped from quartering away shots behind the shoulder. I watched 2 fall immediately. The other 2 were closer than 400 and they too dropped fast. No tracking. It's really just a matter of sometimes things happen that way. Not all shots anchor big animals instantly.

I've also killed 4 bulls with my 6.5 saum and compared to bigger bullets packing more energy there's a noticable difference in how quickly an elk will die at longer ranges.

Based on my kills with a 6.5 I personally feel it's best to keep it inside 600 yards on elk.

If you almost lost him I highly doubt it was a perfect lung shot bro.

You definitely weren't there but way to call me a liar.
I thought I'd made a bad hit when the bull ran off, my buddy and I tracked him for a Long time and finally found him bedded down alive approx 45 minutes later.

He was hit center lungs right behind the shoulder, the bullet opened up and seperated from it's jacket like non bonded bullets do and penetrated both lungs.
There was very little damage to the lungs aside from the hole created from the bullet.

I don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that, but there was definitely a lack of energy at impact given how intact the lungs looked

 

[Timnterra]

I love how heated posts asking opinionated questions become!

Perhaps I'll give a little background to help explain my question...

I am really after the cartridge that will give the "optimum long range performance on big game." I'm not wanting "good enough." Since I handicapped myself by buying parts that do not exactly fit that mold I'm looking for the "next best thing." I started this thread because I thought "maybe there is something out there I am unaware of that would be a great option before I just drop the standard bolt and pick up the magnum."

I mentioned the Sherman cartridges because i knew they would come up. I've read quite a bit about them in the last couple years and have really thought about pulling the trigger on one, but the extra brass work and fireforming has kept me from it. To me it's much more appealing to change the bolt face and run a magnum instead of doing all that work for every single round. I also think the velocity claims seem exaggerated.

I had a 30-06ai that I gave to a buddy and I was amazed at the performance it achieved (3030fps with 178gr eldx.)

I am the guy who is raffling the 280ai, which would be the "best option" for a factory ammo scenario.

I had not thought about the 6.5 RPM case and it is the only Weatherby case I would ever consider using because thus the only one that makes sense.

Have any of you guys seen reports on a 30-6.5rpm?

 

[FEENIX]

I love how heated posts asking opinionated questions become!

LOL!

I had not thought about the 6.5 RPM case and it is the only Weatherby case I would ever consider using because thus the only one that makes sense.

Have any of you guys seen reports on a 30-6.5rpm?

I compared the specs between the .30 Gibbs and 6.5 WBTY RPM and dimensions are very close. "IF" the 6.5 WBTY RPM brass are readily available and cost effective, it might be a better option for me, instead of using .35 Whelen brass.

Tim, I say just build your 30-6.5 WBTY RPM (or your own wildcat) and be done with it.

 

[VLD Pilot]

I've also killed 4 bulls with my 6.5 saum and compared to bigger bullets packing more energy there's a noticable difference in how quickly an elk will die at longer ranges.

Based on my kills with a 6.5 I personally feel it's best to keep it inside 600 yards on elk.


You definitely weren't there but way to call me a liar.
I thought I'd made a bad hit when the bull ran off, my buddy and I tracked him for a Long time and finally found him bedded down alive approx 45 minutes later.

He was hit center lungs right behind the shoulder, the bullet opened up and seperated from it's jacket like non bonded bullets do and penetrated both lungs.
There was very little damage to the lungs aside from the hole created from the bullet.

I don't know what to tell you if you don't believe that, but there was definitely a lack of energy at impact given how intact the lungs looked

I'll give you my experience at 45 yards with a 50 caliber muzzleloader in Colorado using a 600 grain White super slug. Hit the bull quartering slightly at the first rib bullet exited at the front corner of the shoulder. Lost that bull for 12 hours. Blood trail ended and we found him the next day. Perfect shot hit lungs but missed heart. Did some artery damage looked like but he traveled 450 yards best we could tell. Luckily he died near a trail we could access by wheeled cart. Sometimes Chit just happens. Doesn't matter what they are hit with.

 

[J E Custom]

I love how heated posts asking opinionated questions become!

Perhaps I'll give a little background to help explain my question...

I am really after the cartridge that will give the "optimum long range performance on big game." I'm not wanting "good enough." Since I handicapped myself by buying parts that do not exactly fit that mold I'm looking for the "next best thing." I started this thread because I thought "maybe there is something out there I am unaware of that would be a great option before I just drop the standard bolt and pick up the magnum."

I mentioned the Sherman cartridges because i knew they would come up. I've read quite a bit about them in the last couple years and have really thought about pulling the trigger on one, but the extra brass work and fireforming has kept me from it. To me it's much more appealing to change the bolt face and run a magnum instead of doing all that work for every single round. I also think the velocity claims seem exaggerated.

I had a 30-06ai that I gave to a buddy and I was amazed at the performance it achieved (3030fps with 178gr eldx.)



I didn't think that many of recommendations were heated just that some people are passionate about the choices and opinions.

The one thing about the AI's is that fire forming is not a problem like it is in some wildcats that must be fire formed before working up loads. I like most wildcats and all of the AI's if done right. I have found extreme accuracy when firing a parent cartridge in a properly done AI chamber. so in many cases the shooter can hunt with parent cartridges, and fire form at the same time. Even some of the wildcats can be sized to have this small amount of compression (.004) to hold the round in with zero head space to fire form perfect cases.

So ask away, All we can do is give our opinions and incite to a cartridge for the poster to digest and decide on.

J E CUSTOM

 

[bigngreen]

For no compromise on elk out to that 1000 range I personally want a little more sauce but having gone up the ladder into the Lapua Improved class 338s and 30s and the RUMs I've really, really liked what the 300 PRC, 30 Nosler or 30 SM bring to the table, you get SOLID performance inside a normal long range elk hunt with some extra poop to reach on those perfect conditions without just burning powder and barrels for no gain. A mile capable elk gun totally different story!!
The Sherman's are what they are, there are so many of them they have become a benchmark that the Ackley used to be. Way to many out there to try to hype performance, they do what they do.

 

[25WSM]

You know really the cost isn't that much more to just open the bolt face and the rails and do a mag of some sort. A regular old 7mag or 300winmag will get it done. The 28 and 30 Nosler are a step up but not really needed. The 300prc is gaining traction.
Shep

 

[adam32]

You know really the cost isn't that much more to just open the bolt face and the rails and do a mag of some sort. A regular old 7mag or 300winmag will get it done. The 28 and 30 Nosler are a step up but not really needed. The 300prc is gaining traction.
Shep

If you factor in the cost of custom dies, a custom reamer (even if rented), custom brass and fireforming of a Sherman...then the decision to open up the bolt face and chamber a SAAMI cartridge is even more appealing.

In my opinion, a 900 yard elk capable cartridge and standard bolt face don't belong in the same sentence.

 

[VLD Pilot]

If you factor in the cost of custom dies, a custom reamer (even if rented), custom brass and fireforming of a Sherman...then the decision to open up the bolt face and chamber a SAAMI cartridge is even more appealing.

In my opinion, a 900 yard elk capable cartridge and standard bolt face don't belong in the same sentence.

Opinions vary on the subject of LR hunting cartridges. Consider this. The factory load for the 7 Remington magnum in 162 edx sends the round at under 3000 fps. If the magnum is your choice for this goal, a handloaded 284 or 280/280 AI will send the same projectile at or over 3000 fps. My short action 284 runs them 3000 fps easily with great accuracy. There was once a time when the non- magnums had no place in the LR game for big game such as elk but that's not the case today. No offense as it's your personal opinion but I thought I'd throw in a little fact to go along with your comment. This applies to the sibling 6.5-284, 6.5-06, 6.5 PRC etc with premium LR game bullets.

 

[25WSM]

But a 7mag handloaded will beat the 280ai by 150fps. Compare apples to apples here. My crudmore will shoot 147eldms as fast as factory 6.5 prc with rl26. But hand loaded the prc will beat it by 150 to 200 fps. You just can't compare factory ammo to handloaded.
I don't care how over pressure you make a 280ai it still isn't a 7mag.
And 280ai is one of my favorite cartridges but I'm not dumb and the 7mag is easily more powerful. Plus you will find 7mag at just about anywhere selling ammo. Can't say that about 280 or 280ai ammo.
Shep

 

[VLD Pilot]

But a 7mag handloaded will beat the 280ai by 150fps. Compare apples to apples here. My crudmore will shoot 147eldms as fast as factory 6.5 prc with rl26. But hand loaded the prc will beat it by 150 to 200 fps. You just can't compare factory ammo to handloaded.
I don't care how over pressure you make a 280ai it still isn't a 7mag.
And 280ai is one of my favorite cartridges but I'm not dumb and the 7mag is easily more powerful. Plus you will find 7mag at just about anywhere selling ammo. Can't say that about 280 or 280ai ammo.
Shep

I agree 100% any handloads will out perform factory loads. My comment was only to say that the 7mm mag with factory loads is still a 7 mm mag. The Non-magnums are today's factory magnums so if the 7mm mags and 300 mags worked fine 10 years ago shooting elk at 800-1000 yards, today the non-magnum 284/280 certainly are adequate to get it done. I've done it and many others have and as I said everyone's opinions vary and as you stated it was just your opinion so not trying to beat you or anyone up over the issue. We will all do what works for us. Only making that comparison even tho it's not apples to apples because a 7 mm mag is still a 7mm mag with factory ammo.

 

[25WSM]

And how many elephants did Karamojo Bell kill with a 7x57 Mauser with factory military loads. They say at least 800. He shot 200 more with 6.5x54 and 303 Brit. None were even close to magnums. Just plain old good shooting and bullet placement. Probably helped that he was close. Can't even fathom killing 1000 elephant. I'm 53 and have only killed 60 plus whitetails. The way I'm picky now I won't break 100 before I'm worm food.
Shep

 

[Plinker147]

And how many elephants did Karamojo Bell kill with a 7x57 Mauser with factory military loads. They say at least 800. He shot 200 more with 6.5x54 and 303 Brit. None were even close to magnums. Just plain old good shooting and bullet placement. Probably helped that he was close. Can't even fathom killing 1000 elephant. I'm 53 and have only killed 60 plus whitetails. The way I'm picky now I won't break 100 before I'm worm food.
Shep

Bad comparison. Elephants are shot at 50 yds or less, aiming for a small target in the head. No wind drift, no bullet losing velocity, none of the factors that play into making 900yd+ shots.

Im a big 6.5 fan and use them elk hunting but I ain't doing it at 900 yards. It's not shot placement as it is the bullet having enough speed and energy to perform properly and that's where magnums come in. The extra speed and energy matter at those distances. Not saying it can't be done with the smaller non mags, justsaying if I was building a gun with the intent of long range elk hunting it would be a .30or bigger big magnum