Meanwhile on RS they're killin bear, deer, elk , and moose with .223 and 77gr TMK.

[bigbull]

It is a very good thing that there minimum calibers imposed for large game hunting, In my neck of the woods the
minimum is 6mm, except for maybe deer I wish the minimum was bigger than 6mm for bear and moose at least a 270 Win
would be my recommendation and would even go so far as recommending a minimum bullet weight.
Flexing over how big of an animal you can take with the smallest caliber has no place in ethical hunting practices IMHO.
BB

 

[model 700]

Don't know about bigger game but the 77 tmk will flat stop coyotes in their tracks, I am sure they will do the trick on deer but I prefer a super magnum...250 savage with 90 grain hammers LOL

I have been reading where guys are using copper or copper alloy bullets a lot nowadays.I've yet to use anything copper. But the more I see, and the more I hear about them, you guys have peaked my interest. I have a 250savage myself it's never been shot and with the new copper bullets I'm seeing some pretty good ballistics. So if I try reloading one of these should I use their data to get the best results. I'm giving my granddaughter a 257Roberts and I'm wanting to come up with a good hunting bullet but keep the recoil low can you give me some first hand info on this or maybe someone else out there can help. Not only with Hammers but also Burgers appreciate the help.

 

[bamban]

The old adage no replacement for displacement is slowly being pushed aside.

Years ago, bullet designs were stagnant, suddenly, what was a far poke at 200yds, is now a chip shot. Cartridge designs, optic designs, fast twist barrels, bullet designs and now technology have taken that far poke from 200yds to 800yds+.

The main problem I see using the little bullets is they have a tendency to get pushed around fairly easy. It is actually harder for an average shooter to get a .224 diameter 62gr - 88gr bullet on target at 800 - 1000yds than it is a .308 diameter 225gr bullet.

The person behind the trigger, his skillset and the knowledge between his ears is the biggest factors in making it happen. There are some very, very talented people here when it comes to "making it happen".

Combine all the factors in the second paragraph and then add (subtract) the fact that the average shooter is greatly overconfident in their abilities, myself included, equals failure.

I am impressed with the 22lr NRL guys, that is impressive to witness, little bitty 40grish bullets out to 500yds, I can't do it. One reason I want a DI Precision 22lr rifle.

The diminutive 80 grain VLD is indeed gets pushed around in the wind. 1997 TX State Long Range Championship I showed up with a 223 gas gun to compete against Magnums and Palma guns. Match gave me a conditional green light with the pit puller to monitor the supersonic crack in the pit. I was sandwiched between two magnum shooters, a 7 Mag and the other 308 NM. I remember one time we all got caught, they both shot scratch 10s, I shot a mid ring 8.

In the end the little gas gun prevailed rewarded me with this cheap wood.

 

[Petey308]

What about larger caliber cartridges that use frangible type bullets. Logic says that is a small fragmenting bullet works well that a larger one would work better; larger wound track, more fragmentation, etc…..

I run the 195gr .308" TMK in a 308 and 300wm and it works amazing, just like you say. My experience with other similarly constructed bullets mirrors this. I've used lots of AMAXs and ELDMs too. I personally haven't used Bergers much in many years, but I've loaded lots of TMKs, ELDMs, and Bergers for customers and they've had nothing but success so far.

 

[Petey308]

I shoot lots of 75 ELDM's from 7.7 twist .22-.250's at up to 3250 fps out of short action bolt guns. I would not consider these bullets on anything weighing more than 50 pounds. When I shot deers most of them were diagonal hits requiring up to 2 feet of penetration & would have no confidence in the 75 ELDM's - these bullets expand well on shoe box size rodents. A solid copper bullet of 60 plus or so grains having about same length as the 75 ELDM would be my choice.

I've seen and shot deer myself with the 55gr VMAX and watched it penetrate hard quartering from neck to rear rump, still exiting. You'll be ok with a 70+gr variety.

 

[Wyo37]

Flexing over how big of an animal you can take with the smallest caliber has no place in ethical hunting practices IMHO.
BB

I would say the same about flexing over how big of gun you can shoot.

At the end of the day the thought process is not to shoot the smallest caliber to flex. It's about shooting more to become more proficient. It's also about bullets meaning way more than headstamps.

Most guys that shoot large magnums don't shoot a bullet that will maximize terminal performance because it would "waste too much meat." Ok, than why bother with all the recoil? Why not shoot an optimized bullet in a low recoiling cartridge that maximizes the capability of that shootable cartridge?

It's a concept that some won't ever concede due to ego. This pathetic belief to "be a man" you need a 300 win mag......sad really.

 

[ButterBean]

It is a very good thing that there minimum calibers imposed for large game hunting, In my neck of the woods the
minimum is 6mm, except for maybe deer I wish the minimum was bigger than 6mm for bear and moose at least a 270 Win
would be my recommendation and would even go so far as recommending a minimum bullet weight.
Flexing over how big of an animal you can take with the smallest caliber has no place in ethical hunting practices IMHO.
BB

Rule #1

 

[Bert01]

I've killed several SE whitetail with 65 GK and the 62 TSX in .223 from 50-236yds.

 

[Dirtrax]

So narrow wound channel at further distance. I think it's good close in with high velocity.

Since I load them in a 5.56/wylde chamber that I feel is only useful for close(ish) ranges it's fine. I have too many better choices for long ranges to bother. If you have a barrel burner I could see where you would see things differently.

 

[Dirtrax]

It is a very good thing that there minimum calibers imposed for large game hunting, In my neck of the woods the
minimum is 6mm, except for maybe deer I wish the minimum was bigger than 6mm for bear and moose at least a 270 Win
would be my recommendation and would even go so far as recommending a minimum bullet weight.
Flexing over how big of an animal you can take with the smallest caliber has no place in ethical hunting practices IMHO.
BB

We try to avoid speaking about ethics here.
I prefer to let Darwin take care of poor practices and leave the gov't out of it. Look where government controls have led y'all up there. Soon you will have nothing to shoot so it won't matter anymore.

 

[xsn10s]

I try to stay away from the emotional state that topics like this can bring. Which is why I only stated in the opening post that the terminal pictures are impressive. So far the thread has run the gamut of the 77 gr TMK causing too much damage, to being too light a round, to being pushed by the wind too easily. One question was if I was willing to take a shot in 25-30 mph winds with .224/.243/.264 on a lifetime 7x7 elk? Every hunting opportunity presents the chance of a buck, bull whatever of a lifetime. So you have to use what you have at the time. Even if I had say a 300 WM with a 215 Hybrid I'd consider passing the shot in 25-30 mph winds unless I stalked in close enough. In those winds I'd be less concerned with the bullet getting pushed around and more concerned with my body getting shoved around. The whole premise of this post is the terminal performance of the 77 TMK even out to 800 yards using the .223/ 5.56. I take the emotion and preconceived beliefs out and let my mind take in the terminal performance. It's just another tool for the toolbox.

 

[stovepipe]

I have been reading where guys are using copper or copper alloy bullets a lot nowadays.I've yet to use anything copper. But the more I see, and the more I hear about them, you guys have peaked my interest. I have a 250savage myself it's never been shot and with the new copper bullets I'm seeing some pretty good ballistics. So if I try reloading one of these should I use their data to get the best results. I'm giving my granddaughter a 257Roberts and I'm wanting to come up with a good hunting bullet but keep the recoil low can you give me some first hand info on this or maybe someone else out there can help. Not only with Hammers but also Burgers appreciate the help.

Hi, if I were loading a 257 Robert's and wanted a very effective short to medium range low recoil load I would definitely look at the barnes 80 grain ttsx or one of the lighter hammers say 75 to 95 grain, these choices IMO would be more forgiving for a young shooter than a softer fast expanding bullet, hope this helps

 

[Lenny Foffa]

You know that a funny statement about guys who shoot with a caliber that starts with 3 think anything that starts with 2 is to small. I love that you brought that up. Some of the older guys on this forum may remember the ' Literary Friendly Feud between two great gun writers in the 50's and early 60's Jack Oconner was a huge fan of the 270 Win as we all know, ( like me ) and Elmer Kieth was a fan of huge powerful bone crushing calibers that one would think was only suitable of African game. I think He was involved with the 338 OKH. I'm glad we can all still joke about our choices, as friends. But of course, you all know the 270 Win is still the perfect deer cartridge !!! Ok Ok I'm leaving!!

 

[sierracharlie338]

You know that a funny statement about guys who shoot with a caliber that starts with 3 think anything that starts with 2 is to small. I love that you brought that up. Some of the older guys on this forum may remember the ' Literary Friendly Feud between two great gun writers in the 50's and early 60's Jack Oconner was a huge fan of the 270 Win as we all know, ( like me ) and Elmer Kieth was a fan of huge powerful bone crushing calibers that one would think was only suitable of African game. I think He was involved with the 338 OKH. I'm glad we can all still joke about our choices, as friends. But of course, you all know the 270 Win is still the perfect deer cartridge !!! Ok Ok I'm leaving!!

I knew there would be one of y'all showing up!