Lead Poisoning

asd9055 said:
I see this is still going. Here is my last 2 cents. I am totally broke after that.
1. Lead poisoning is Real. It has been documented in cases going back to the Roman times, when the Romans were drinking "lead milk", or using lead pipes to carry water. Google it. It was documented in the bones of a skeleton of a young girl from the Roman times on the Island of Cyprus. It can stunt the growth along other long term effects.
2. The problems:
a. Passionate people on either side, too busy arguing and shouting at each other to reach a logical solution.
b. Money to be made on either side. When money talks....something walks
Deaw your own conclussions. Options are always better than directives. We are all better served to leave passion out and have civil discussions.
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Well said, brother. 👍
 
I have seen the effects of lead poisoning.

These two lady friends I once knew were into making pottery & they glazed their stuff in real hot ovens with glaze material containing numerous metals including copper & lead (nice bold colors). Both women/ladies exhibited lead poisoning symptoms after more than a year of intensive pottery production - joint pain, belly pains, difficulty in concentration. Wisely, they had blood tests that indicated extremely & dangerously elevated levels of lead - the treatment was chelation, binding the lead by pills that bind lead to pill ingredients enabling lead to be excreted in urine or injection of a drug (EDTA) that does the same. It was determined that inhalation of lead containing fumes were massive, like more than lead core bullets either primary or secondary.

The other was driving on I 90 thru the Silver Valley just west of Kellog & Wallace ID - two olde mining towns harvesting enormous supergene deposits of silver combined with lead & zinc. Huge black piles of overburden & slag were deposited in visible piles near roadside, a tall smokestack belched out fumes, a small stream ran west thru the mining activity towards Couer d Alene, city & lake, Spokane river to Spokane. Dead vegetation, like no green trees or grass. Extreme high lead blood levels in children, massive $ Fed cleanup done, mining practically shut down- like more than lead core bullets either primary or secondary. Green trees again.

Another dangerous projectile combo would be depleted uranium (DU) that provides outstanding penetration effects when used against steel (not good for shooting steel at rifle range). The DU has a higher density than lead. DU has been blamed for many long-term health problems where military use has occurred, like in Iraq, like more than lead core bullets either primary or secondary. DU, as expected is real pricy, it is used in med applications such as shielding Xray emissions.

As expected, folks get nervous about stuff than can shorten life & enjoyment of. I respect this & will comply with reasonable restrictions to enable my pursuit of happy shooting on private lands. At one time I shot many destructive rodents on private land owned & run by two real nice women/ladies. After seeing some of the rodent depredation they permitted me to remove as many of the rodents as possible. The usual drill was to arrive at a certain spot where there was no chance of drainage towards streams, livestock, or residences. One or more 2 ft. holes were dug & 2x4's were placed in each hole for location some distance from two track. Then Bang, Zip, Splat. Dead rodents were picked up using a round shovel and placed in paper shopping bags. Then rodent bags secured to tail gate & transported to pre dug holes & covered with round shovel then wipe down of shovel, tail gate, rubber floor mats & boot soles with 75% water- 25% bleach solution (for bacterial plague vectors & bacilli) then trip back to ranch house for a nice cold Pepsi & friendly discussion about opposing views on world events. Bang, zip, splat assured again. Lots of work for some 400 yard hits.
 
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bigngreen said:
If we keep dividing into extreme camps there won't be anyone in the middle, that video was center line for me, kinda bristled me up, kinda made me think,
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To quote the great Margaret Thatcher
"The trouble with being in the middle of the road is you'll get hit by traffic from both directions".
The leftists are the extreme camp, it's going to take strong men to stop their agenda not squishy Romney types who're afraid to be called "extreme".
Take a second look at the groups sponsoring that video then tell me it's not propaganda.

bigngreen said:
if we silence or shout down other people because we're to afraid to allow a conversation then we have become what we fear!!
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You need to take a serious look at who's attacking free speech in this country and shouting down the opposition.
People on this forum taking a stand against propaganda is not disallowing conversation, it's using speech to push back against a clear political/monitory agenda.
 
Ross1147 said:
I'm a little late to this post. Finally watched the video. I'm not sure how anyone can watch this and not think this is 100% propaganda for non-lead bullet makers. I have no issues using hammers, they shoot great in most my guns and kill. But, I'm not made of money and can't afford to only shoot copper. Since I've moved back to a free state I haven't purchased any copper due to cost. It's videos like this that put the hunting community against each other and reduce the supporters we have in the game.
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Unfortunately it seems that anything that shows a deficiency in lead core bullet performance and then offers a lead free alternative somehow is labeled as propaganda and divisive. This documentary was made to give information to hunters, not antis. There is no need or desire convince them of environmental impacts from lead. If hunters watch the video and wish there was a good alternative to what they are using, there is. Our story was not about saving the environment but how we were able to design a bullet that has better terminal performance than any other bullets, not just other lead free bullets, so they could make a switch and not have to give up on game performance. We made our copper bullets for the best terminal performance on the market not to capitalize on lead bans.

Even more unfortunate is some of the vile attitude that has been projected in response from people who call themselves hunters. Those doing this are the fuel to the anti hunting cause. They make us hunters look like what the anti's want to portray us as. Denying that lead has any negative effects on anything simply makes us look stupid. As if they got rid of lead plumbing in order to prime the people for the ultimate goal of outlawing hunting in order to confiscate guns. Or that there are other things that are killing birds, so what difference does it make if they die from lead too? This portrays the hunter as having an attitude of "so what, I don't care". The anti's don't have to make up lies about us, we do it ourselves.

Then there is a group here on lrh that are so invested in getting me and Hammer Bullets they are willing to destroy the reputation of all hunters in order to do so. Really disgusting and unbelievable. The idea that I or my company is willing to side with anti hunting organizations in order to increase our business is blatantly false and ignorantly stupid. Reducing the amount of hunting doesn't increase our market. This group thinks this is "the" issue they can destroy Hammer Bullets with. With so much desire to do so, they are willing to destroy the reputation of the entire hunting community. Unlike other efforts from this group where they only destroy their own reputations.

Debating how much effect there is from lead projectiles on the environment is a debate worth having. It should be led by smart people on our side that don't portray hunters as scorched earth, kill everything, uncaring jerks.

@Ross1147 , most of this is not directed at you. Only the lead free bullet company propaganda part. Thanks for your post.
 
RockyMtnMT said:
Unfortunately it seems that anything that shows a deficiency in lead core bullet performance and then offers a lead free alternative somehow is labeled as propaganda and divisive. This documentary was made to give information to hunters, not antis. There is no need or desire convince them of environmental impacts from lead. If hunters watch the video and wish there was a good alternative to what they are using, there is. Our story was not about saving the environment but how we were able to design a bullet that has better terminal performance than any other bullets, not just other lead free bullets, so they could make a switch and not have to give up on game performance. We made our copper bullets for the best terminal performance on the market not to capitalize on lead bans.

Even more unfortunate is some of the vile attitude that has been projected in response from people who call themselves hunters. Those doing this are the fuel to the anti hunting cause. They make us hunters look like what the anti's want to portray us as. Denying that lead has any negative effects on anything simply makes us look stupid. As if they got rid of lead plumbing in order to prime the people for the ultimate goal of outlawing hunting in order to confiscate guns. Or that there are other things that are killing birds, so what difference does it make if they die from lead too? This portrays the hunter as having an attitude of "so what, I don't care". The anti's don't have to make up lies about us, we do it ourselves.

Then there is a group here on lrh that are so invested in getting me and Hammer Bullets they are willing to destroy the reputation of all hunters in order to do so. Really disgusting and unbelievable. The idea that I or my company is willing to side with anti hunting organizations in order to increase our business is blatantly false and ignorantly stupid. Reducing the amount of hunting doesn't increase our market. This group thinks this is "the" issue they can destroy Hammer Bullets with. With so much desire to do so, they are willing to destroy the reputation of the entire hunting community. Unlike other efforts from this group where they only destroy their own reputations.

Debating how much effect there is from lead projectiles on the environment is a debate worth having. It should be led by smart people on our side that don't portray hunters as scorched earth, kill everything, uncaring jerks.

@Ross1147 , most of this is not directed at you. Only the lead free bullet company propaganda part. Thanks for your post.
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Like sierra club? Sorry, maybe a low blow, but I think your post is so misguided it just makes me shake my head. If you're going to call anybody that disagree with what you said on here vile, then I think my post is not out of bounds.

Why not sponsor a study and do a documentary by hunters for hunters, not jumping on a documentary that comes across as very anti, sponsored by companies that are anti.
 
Ucsdryder said:
I think you Missed the point and continue to miss it. Whether you believe in a lead ban or not, it doesn't matter. You posted a video by an anti-hunting group (reading between the lines with sponsorship by sierra club, etc) showing how your bullets didn't contain lead and how lead leaves a dust trail through ballistics gel which causes harm to animals. Many people here, except the die hard hammer crew that will defend you even if you put Dylan Mulvaney as your spokeswoman, have called it a bad look and questioned your motive.

It's not about what you believe or even meant to say, it's the message you portrayed to many on here.
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That is the message you portray from a position of ignorant prejudice.
 
RockyMtnMT said:
Unfortunately it seems that anything that shows a deficiency in lead core bullet performance and then offers a lead free alternative somehow is labeled as propaganda and divisive. This documentary was made to give information to hunters, not antis. There is no need or desire convince them of environmental impacts from lead. If hunters watch the video and wish there was a good alternative to what they are using, there is. Our story was not about saving the environment but how we were able to design a bullet that has better terminal performance than any other bullets, not just other lead free bullets, so they could make a switch and not have to give up on game performance. We made our copper bullets for the best terminal performance on the market not to capitalize on lead bans.

Even more unfortunate is some of the vile attitude that has been projected in response from people who call themselves hunters. Those doing this are the fuel to the anti hunting cause. They make us hunters look like what the anti's want to portray us as. Denying that lead has any negative effects on anything simply makes us look stupid. As if they got rid of lead plumbing in order to prime the people for the ultimate goal of outlawing hunting in order to confiscate guns. Or that there are other things that are killing birds, so what difference does it make if they die from lead too? This portrays the hunter as having an attitude of "so what, I don't care". The anti's don't have to make up lies about us, we do it ourselves.

Then there is a group here on lrh that are so invested in getting me and Hammer Bullets they are willing to destroy the reputation of all hunters in order to do so. Really disgusting and unbelievable. The idea that I or my company is willing to side with anti hunting organizations in order to increase our business is blatantly false and ignorantly stupid. Reducing the amount of hunting doesn't increase our market. This group thinks this is "the" issue they can destroy Hammer Bullets with. With so much desire to do so, they are willing to destroy the reputation of the entire hunting community. Unlike other efforts from this group where they only destroy their own reputations.

Debating how much effect there is from lead projectiles on the environment is a debate worth having. It should be led by smart people on our side that don't portray hunters as scorched earth, kill everything, uncaring jerks.

@Ross1147 , most of this is not directed at you. Only the lead free bullet company propaganda part. Thanks for your post.
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I shoot both, all my bullets used for killing stuff like rodents are lead core. Imagine the cost for no-lead, high BC, bullets (solid copper/alloy or sintered copper-tin cored bullets) used to remove more than three hundred rodents per day for a 3-day shoot! But how many deers or elks would I shoot in 5 years or so, possibly 15 & 5 at a max, if I was into shooting deers or elks. This could be done with 1 box containing 50 non-lead solid copper bullets, providing careful record keeping, component stability & conformity & careful pre-hunt sight in procedures. If required for making diagonal, high penetration shots on big beasts I will always go for solid copper/alloy bullets -50 bullets will kill many. Should I be required to kill a rampaging big beast using a 6mm or 6.5 bullet it would be a Hammer bullet or equivalent.

I seriously question any detrimental environments effects of lead core rifle bullet used in hunting applications. High volume target ranges need to be periodically inspected for lead contamination. I believe most of anti-lead core bullet regs are generated in response to exasperated reactions to detrimental environmental effects and in response legislators have elected a middle ground to placate both sides, like don't shoot deers with lead cored bullets but solid copper/alloy bullets OK.
 
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There should not be a lead vs copper, pick a side and battle it out mentality in the hunting community. There are a few here on lrh (the ignorant pregadice group) that are seemingly demanding that we choose up sides with the goal to damage Hammer Bullets. In doing so they damage all of us. It is really kinda sick. Never bothered me much when the only ones they made look bad was themselves. Now they make us all look bad and weaken us as a whole. This is very unfortunate.
 
I went back and watched the video twice cause it's a little weird for me to be perceived as on a side of this I'm not used to, especially on this subject of raptors I'm of the hold my beer, I can hit it from here school.
There was literally nothing in that video that could work me up.

Of course there is probably money behind it from sources we dislike, who the heck else is going to fund them but an argument of guilt by association is a tactic to shut down conversation so maybe we should look for a factual reason in the video to debunk it, the issue is that it's a really well done film, it called for thinking about it, presented some high level facts of lead in raptors is bad, they see a spike around certain seasons that co-inside with lead frag in carcasses, they presented some alternatives to the projectile, notice they did not push and agenda of an alternative to hunting, guns or any of our constitution rights.

So what's the real issue with the film, is it anything related to the premise or facts or is it just that Steve is was involved and this is just another ad hominem weak sauce argument!!
 
muleskinner said:
My dog was shot by a shotgun 7 years ago. His x-ray showed that he has 13 lead pellets in him, two you can still see under his skin. The others are deep inside him with one being against his spine. He's never slowed down even a little bit, still runs in the desert a couple miles per day. That was 8 years ago.

When I was a young boy I'd keep about 10 lead pellets in my mouth for quicker reloads in my pellet gun while hunting anything I could find. I'd hunt every day after school. I've never had any symptoms of lead poisoning, I'm 54 now.
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I did the same thing with lead split shot fishing when I was a kid. No pockets in my shorts.
 
I don't know if the agenda of those making the video is to eliminate firearm ownership in America or just to educate about lead toxicity!

However, if we totally quit patronizing any and all businesses that are blatantly "anti" 2nd Amendment ……the vast majority of us would be naked and hungry! JMO. memtb
 

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