Lathe question

[Trickymissfit]

Weve had a bit better luck with okumas than that. I think we have 10 cadets, and 12 lb's. Also 8 4020 mills. Our management really likes okumas. Ive run a few of their mills and a half a dozen of the lathes. I like em. They are fast. Probably my favorite outta the machines we have.

I think our base models ran about 300-400k for the cadets and the lb's. I think the bigger twin turrets run from about 650-700k to 1m. They're definitely not cheap, especially when you start adding in all the gadgets that go along with them.

Hardinge machines are definitely very accurate but they are much harder to get parts and serviced than okumas.

Kadets share a few problems that virtually all CNC lathes have. Headstock alignment is a PIA on a good day with any of them, and the fix is the real issue. Okumas are some of the worst to realign out there. Monarchs are pretty bad as well. The older J&L's had the best frame ever, but in a wreck would loose their head stock alignment. About a three to four hour job depending on which model. An Okuma is typically a sixteen hour affair on a good day. Getting access to the dowel pin holes is the issue in all of them. The old Monarch TC1 was a two day affair! It's all downtime money that's lost forever. Turret alignment is a pain with all Okumas, but after you've done them a few times you get a lot faster. The real issue is the way they did the coolant system inside the cross slide. Never figured out why! They could have easily mounted the valve outside of the slide like everybody else. Trust me, these issues are minor compared to what you encounter with a Mori Seiki!! Okuma for some odd reason designed the electrical circuits for over travel and the zero switches extremely over simplified. Works great till something goes wrong. It then becomes a nightmare trying to figure out what axis failed, and whether it's over travel or the zero switches. Have pulled more than one new set of cables in them over this alone. First one we had to do this was down for the better part of a week just trying to find out what was wrong! The other big electrical issue is in their CNC control module. The operator has access to the parimeters, and this is an absolute no no!

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Kadets share a few problems that virtually all CNC lathes have. Headstock alignment is a PIA on a good day with any of them, and the fix is the real issue. Okumas are some of the worst to realign out there. Monarchs are pretty bad as well. The older J&L's had the best frame ever, but in a wreck would loose their head stock alignment. About a three to four hour job depending on which model. An Okuma is typically a sixteen hour affair on a good day. Getting access to the dowel pin holes is the issue in all of them. The old Monarch TC1 was a two day affair! It's all downtime money that's lost forever. Turret alignment is a pain with all Okumas, but after you've done them a few times you get a lot faster. The real issue is the way they did the coolant system inside the cross slide. Never figured out why! They could have easily mounted the valve outside of the slide like everybody else. Trust me, these issues are minor compared to what you encounter with a Mori Seiki!! Okuma for some odd reason designed the electrical circuits for over travel and the zero switches extremely over simplified. Works great till something goes wrong. It then becomes a nightmare trying to figure out what axis failed, and whether it's over travel or the zero switches. Have pulled more than one new set of cables in them over this alone. First one we had to do this was down for the better part of a week just trying to find out what was wrong! The other big electrical issue is in their CNC control module. The operator has access to the parimeters, and this is an absolute no no!

This is true. And once those pin holes get a little loose that turret will fall out of alignment much easier.

Best bet is to try really hard not to crash, but it does happen.

 

[Trickymissfit]

This is true. And once those pin holes get a little loose that turret will fall out of alignment much easier.

Best bet is to try really hard not to crash, but it does happen.

too late now, but never ever leave the dowel pins in the slide or frame after alignments are completed. I had an Okuma that the factory left them in place. There was an insert failure causing a catastrophic wreck. After finally getting everything strait, I had to grind a reamer and make all new dowel pins for X axis and the turret. Don't think the headstock was knocked out, but we pulled 100% of the dowel pins. Called Okuma and they pretty much ignored us. Most machine manuals tell you right away to never leave the pins in place. Another issue is the shim plate that a lot of ball screws have under them. I always stored them in the electrical panel with the S/N etched on it. Loose the shim, and you gotta start all over, and that's a real pain in the butt. The center line on the nut will vary as much as .015", and it's near impossible to measure it off a used screw. You can get by with murder in a lathe, but a machine center or grinder is a different ball game.
gary

 

[Canadian Bushman]

too late now, but never ever leave the dowel pins in the slide or frame after alignments are completed. I had an Okuma that the factory left them in place. There was an insert failure causing a catastrophic wreck. After finally getting everything strait, I had to grind a reamer and make all new dowel pins for X axis and the turret. Don't think the headstock was knocked out, but we pulled 100% of the dowel pins. Called Okuma and they pretty much ignored us. Most machine manuals tell you right away to never leave the pins in place. Another issue is the shim plate that a lot of ball screws have under them. I always stored them in the electrical panel with the S/N etched on it. Loose the shim, and you gotta start all over, and that's a real pain in the butt. The center line on the nut will vary as much as .015", and it's near impossible to measure it off a used screw. You can get by with murder in a lathe, but a machine center or grinder is a different ball game.
gary

Wont it bump off centerline even easier with no pins in the turret?

 

[shortgrass]

Take a look at ENCO (www.use-enco.com) for lathes. They'd be good for what you want to do. They've got free shipping 'till the end of the month. A guy can and will rack up a lot of $$$$$$ for a hobby. Lots of rifles could be commissioned for what you'll end up spending. I take it you have previous machining experience? There should be alot of used machine tools available in Mich. Check with the used machine dealers.

 

[MTBULLET]

FWIW, I started with an old sears/southbend screw bench lathe years ago, learned to run it then purchased a Southbend 10x36 (1947) and used it for about 6 yrs., built 9-10 rifles, then just a month ago sold it and purchased 14x40 Eisen 1440GE after a LOT of research.
Really like the new machine, great quality and tolerances are truly great. The learning curve going from 1947 technology to "new" is short , but start slowly. This machine goes from 50 rpm to 2000 (2000 rpm is nice to play with for fine finish, but don't think I'll use it much) I like dealing with Eisen, and machine is set up to readily accept collet chuck.taper attach./and DRO and these additions are not that expensive.
The older equipment is out there, just have to keep looking, I searched for several years before I found Southbend thru Gov't surplus,auction site, at a location not far from me. Most of the older stuff i looked at was "junk" so take your time and look it over well. The advantage of used is it will normally include a lot of tooling you will need.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Wont it bump off centerline even easier with no pins in the turret?

the idea of the dowel pins is to return to proper alignment after the machine is bumped out of alignment. You loosen the bolts and install the pins. Then retighten all the bolts. Once done you pull the pins again. That way you always have a good reference to go from. Might add here that if the machine fails to properly align with the pins in place; it's time to relevel and align the frame again. I've seen wrecks so hard that they ripped the hardened ways off the frame! But always got them back to OEM condition in due time. (have had wrecks that took close to a month to fix) Ball screws are a different animal. Once you replace the screw, the OEM dowel pin holes are useless. That shim plate they often come with is only a reference point after that. You'll probably never use it again.

I built and rebuilt machinery for a living, it was a constant learning process. Have seen some pretty good setups, and have seen my share of seriously bad setups in my lifetime.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Buy this SOUTHBEND LATHE so I don't.

 

[rifle 57]

Why would you want that boat anchor for.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Why would you want that boat anchor for.

it looks very rebuildable, which is something you can't do with an Asian lathe. Just as importantly the Southbend bench lathe was often considered to be the best bench lathe out there till the advent of the Hardingh final finish lathe. Most shops used either a Southbend or a Monarch "EE" series lathe for that kind of work. You could buy four or five Southbends for the price of a single Monarch 10" EE (or 8" EE) lathe. The Monarch EE is a legit sub .0005" machine seven days a week. Only the Hardingh can run with that beast.
gary

 

[shortgrass]

23 years ago, while I was in gunsmithing school, I chambered 4 out of the 5 required barrels on a little South Bend, just like that. By the way, I got an A in "Barrel Fitting & Chambering".

 

[rifle 57]

Yes you are correct it could be rebuilt but I just don't have any use for the little bench top lathes and most of the small Asian lathes are junk. I have all ready been that route with the small Asian and small American lathes, they just wont do the kind of quality work that I want to do. Yes I know they will do good enough for most gunsmiths and hobbyist. I just like my 15x50 Colchester and my 16x40 Tru-turn and the 13x40 MSC. They are heavy and ridged.
I would love to own a Monarch 10-EE or a Hardinge.

 

[shortgrass]

The skill is in the man, not the machine. Heavy lathes are nice. They're ridgid. Gunsmithing chores aren't done like 'production' work is. I run a 20" Summit at the machine shop, sometimes. I take a cut .060" deep (that's .120" in dia.) @ .008" to .010" per revolution on alloy steels. No way would I try that with a bench lathe. Used as intended, as a tool room lathe, if not worn out, it'll do gunsmithing tasks all day long. In the mid '70s I made many tools for screw machines on a Clausing bench lathe that was in the tool room. It was about the same size as that little South Bend. I chamber throuh the head stock and I'd not want to do it on a 15" or 16" swing lathe. The tail stock would be just too heavy to handle easily. Even with a muzzle flush, you still have to handle the tail stock, just not as often. Back to the OP,,,,, the guy is a hobbiest looking for a lathe to do hobby work with. In his case, no need for a machine capable of production that's be hard to handle.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Yes you are correct it could be rebuilt but I just don't have any use for the little bench top lathes and most of the small Asian lathes are junk. I have all ready been that route with the small Asian and small American lathes, they just wont do the kind of quality work that I want to do. Yes I know they will do good enough for most gunsmiths and hobbyist. I just like my 15x50 Colchester and my 16x40 Tru-turn and the 13x40 MSC. They are heavy and ridged.
I would love to own a Monarch 10-EE or a Hardinge.

a Colchester is probably the best hand lathe in current production. Have not seen a Tru Turn in a long time! The LeBlond Regal is another good one, but the apron and half nut can be a virtual nightmare. Plus the servo shift linkage is plastic, and will break when you can't afford it to. Still the fix is easy.

The Monarch EE series are still the most accurate lathes ever produced. Extremely rigid. The real issue with them are in the spindle electronic drive. There are no spare parts to be had commercially. (note: the DOD probably still have warehouses full of spares). Of these electronic drives there are two designs. One uses tubes and the other is solid state. If you can get a stash of tubes, that's the better one. The rest of it is point to point wired. Rebuild able! I've rebuilt two or three of them (one 10" and the others 8"). The 10" was a tube drive, and the electrical guys didn't make any effort to rebuild it. Instead spec'd a "Euro-Drive" variable speed out fit. Ran good, but had no power. If a guy had the money, and the time; a Fanuc AC Pulse Code drive is the ticket. By the way, that 10" lathe was a rock solid .0005" or less lathe, but max cut in steel was about .030"
gary