Lathe question

[Brewer]

So... I am going to give another opinion, very different that what has been expressed here.

Tooling is where you HAVE to spend your money. high quality, sharp tools. good measuring tools. you will at least double the cost of your machine if you want to blueprint in a quality way.

don't bother with a lathe for less than $3000. I have a Grizzly G4003G which is their little gunsmithing lathe. I think they run just less than $3500 delivered, and there are many times I wish I would have saved another $1500 or $2000 and got a nicer one. the nicer the machine, the faster your work goes. you can do good work on a less expensive machine but you have to do more work to get your work true each time.

Having said that, you might be asking the wrong question. After I took a machine class at the local Tech school, I pretty well knew what I wanted and needed. I would say it would be a good idea to get some actual chip cutting under your belt and read a few books before you think about buying a machine unless you have $10,000 you are ready to drop on this.

the more work you learn to do, the more proficient you will become. then as you become more proficient, you want to take on another challenge. well, pretty soon you have run out of machine for your ability level. so you may just be thinking you would like to true an action (which is actually a pretty advanced process involving lots of expensive tooling, but wont be long and you will want to be chambering barrels. that's a bunch more money and if you want to cut a 30" barrel, you have to have the capacity in length and your hole through diameter needs to be big enough.

so.... take a class and get some experience, then once you ware just dieing to have a machine of your own, you are probably ready to pick one out.

One of the reasons I chose Grizzly is because they market direct and so you can get basically the same lathe as a jet or ENCO or other like for 10-15% less because there is no middle man. a friend of mine has an ENCO and its a good machine too, they just run you another $500 for the same thing.

I buy professional tooling. at first its hard to spend the money on it and I cried some, but its like a good scope, once you buy one, you will never buy a less expensive one again. my $0.02

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I have to disagree. The gun might look good on the outside but inside I have seen some really poor machining posted up here and can't help but think if the guy had a better machine he could do a lot smoother work.

If you just wanted to make aluminum pillars or turn plastic you could get by with a pretty cheap machine. Risking a $500 to $1300 blank is not something I would try on a lightweight machine.

Sure, making good parts on a new machine is always easier.

Ive made plenty of parts for 140+ mph racebikes on my 1932 6" belt driven south bend.
If your budget doesnt allow for all the bells and whistles you can make it up with know how. If you arent willing to put forth the effort to build your skills to that point, then either fork out the dough for the good stuff or pay someone else to do it.

As far as hobbyist go, not many get to learn on top notch equipment

 

[Trickymissfit]

I agree with just about everything that has been said. Youve been given some good info to consider by some very knowledgeable individuals.

That being said, there is gonna come a point when you realize you cant afford all the things that make a good gunsmithing lathe, and even if you could you probably wouldnt wanna spend that much on a hobby.

This is where know how comes in. Many talented smiths and machinist make beautiful wepons on crap machines everyday. I suggest diligently applying yourself to understanding the core concepts of operating a lathe and performing the smithing operations that apply to what you wanna do.

After that youll understand what parts of a machine are critical and which ones can be easily circumvented with know how and a little practice.

there's a saying in the machine world. "Anybody can run a good machine, but not everybody can run a bad one."

When I was a kid, I got put on a nice little Southbend bench lathe that had every option. Liked running it, and could work in the .0008" range with some practice. This was before the advent of scales and such. All of a sudden they bring me a brand new Southbend. I could run it in the .0005" range all day long. Told the boss he wasted money! Sitting beside the Southbend lathe was a really ugly LeBlond 14x48 hand lathe. I mean it was really ugly! Built in 1943 with a special frame casting built for a woman. Sat about 8" lower than the American right behind it. Casting was typical war finish. Everybody hated it, so I got stuck with it. I was the only person that ran it in years. The guys in the machine repair shop saw me trying to run it one day, and came over and gave it a tune up. I could run it with in .001" all day long, but you had to actually bend over to run it. I came in one Monday morning to find the boss had it painted a very nice and shiny light grey (was a flat black).

gary

 

[Canadian Bushman]

there's a saying in the machine world. "Anybody can run a good machine, but not everybody can run a bad one."

When I was a kid, I got put on a nice little Southbend bench lathe that had every option. Liked running it, and could work in the .0008" range with some practice. This was before the advent of scales and such. All of a sudden they bring me a brand new Southbend. I could run it in the .0005" range all day long. Told the boss he wasted money! Sitting beside the Southbend lathe was a really ugly LeBlond 14x48 hand lathe. I mean it was really ugly! Built in 1943 with a special frame casting built for a woman. Sat about 8" lower than the American right behind it. Casting was typical war finish. Everybody hated it, so I got stuck with it. I was the only person that ran it in years. The guys in the machine repair shop saw me trying to run it one day, and came over and gave it a tune up. I could run it with in .001" all day long, but you had to actually bend over to run it. I came in one Monday morning to find the boss had it painted a very nice and shiny light grey (was a flat black).

gary

Lol we actually have a leblond makino here that is an utter piece of ****! The 67 year old man running it is one of the best ive ever seen. I spent a few years working under him, and some days i was simply astounded at the stuff he would pull off on that machine. I used his machine to cut a gauge pin one day and it cut a .003 taper over 1.5" and the tail stock went from .007 one way to .004 the other over a foot. After that i was truely baffled at how he did some of the things he did. After that i started paying very close attention to how he did his jobs.

Some tools are necessary, some arent. Experience and understanding is how you know the difference.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Lol we actually have a leblond makino here that is an utter piece of ****! The 67 year old man running it is one of the best ive ever seen. I spent a few years working under him, and some days i was simply astounded at the stuff he would pull off on that machine. I used his machine to cut a gauge pin one day and it cut a .003 taper over 1.5" and the tail stock went from .007 one way to .004 the other over a foot. After that i was truely baffled at how he did some of the things he did. After that i started paying very close attention to how he did his jobs.

Some tools are necessary, some arent. Experience and understanding is how you know the difference.

Sounds like the machine needs a complete realignment, and maybe the tail stock needs to be rebuilt. LeBlond tail stocks are some what under built, and the quill tends to wear quickly. Hard to fix, and do it right. You need to scrape it as perfect as you can. Then send the quill out and have it hard chromed. Then grind it as best you can (hopefully the bore is OK). After you get all that done, mount the tail stock on an angle plate in a jig bore and then bore the spindle bore to fit the quill (about .001" clearance). Think this is bad? Rebuild the apron! The absolute worst I've ever seen to do period!
gary

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Sounds like the machine needs a complete realignment, and maybe the tail stock needs to be rebuilt. LeBlond tail stocks are some what under built, and the quill tends to wear quickly. Hard to fix, and do it right. You need to scrape it as perfect as you can. Then send the quill out and have it hard chromed. Then grind it as best you can (hopefully the bore is OK). After you get all that done, mount the tail stock on an angle plate in a jig bore and then bore the spindle bore to fit the quill (about .001" clearance). Think this is bad? Rebuild the apron! The absolute worst I've ever seen to do period!
gary

We dont rebuild or refurbish machines in house we only maintain them. We outsource heavy repairs and we ship the machines out that are really bad, which doesnt happen a lot. Im not sure why we dont send this one out for repair. Probably either the man never complains or management feels he is capable of performing his duties with the lathe as is.

Funny thing is another man at our shop has the same machine at home in immaculate condition and offered to sell it for 20k, a downright steal, and they turned him down. Instead they dropped 700k for a live tool twin turret okuma for a relatively green machinist.

Workshop politics, nothing like it.

 

[Trickymissfit]

We dont rebuild or refurbish machines in house we only maintain them. We outsource heavy repairs and we ship the machines out that are really bad, which doesnt happen a lot. Im not sure why we dont send this one out for repair. Probably either the man never complains or management feels he is capable of performing his duties with the lathe as is.

Funny thing is another man at our shop has the same machine at home in immaculate condition and offered to sell it for 20k, a downright steal, and they turned him down. Instead they dropped 700k for a live tool twin turret okuma for a relatively green machinist.

Workshop politics, nothing like it.

many years back, Dave Bush called me and asked me to go look at several new machines at the Chicago Tool Show. He was looking at a couple small mills and a CNC lathe. At the sametime my boss gives me a ticket to attend the show. They wanted me to look at huge machine center that was the talk of the show. I looked at a half dozen small CNC milling machines, and Dave bought four made in California. Then he had me look at a CNC lathe that was similar in size to a Okuma Kadet. It had x1 and x2 slides with live tooling on x1. Motorized tail stock and a really nice bar feeder. I asked the guy about hard turning and using Thompson rod in it (Dave bought Thompson rod by the truck load). Was assured it would do the job. Dave buys the machine with a three year maintenance agreement (ala extended warranty). I watched him write a check for $226,000, and liked to died! That was cheap! Ran better than I would have ever thought, and was deadly accurate. After about a year, Dave called me to ask me what kind of accuracy we were getting out of our live tooling setups on the Okumas (we had about 50 machines). I checked and saw .002"/.003" area with a lot of tweaks in the tooling. He started out at .0015"! At the end of the three year cycle, Dave had bought another, and two a size larger. Well I sat down in a budget meeting, looking to buy six to eight CNC lathes. They were looking at $320K a machine bare from Okuma. I questioned the amount as it seemed insane (still gotta buy chucks and stuff.) Well the folks buying them came up with figures we paid for the Kadets without any serious options. $275K a pop! I then told them about the Hardinghs, and had them check a couple divisions that had many of them. What killed the Okumas was the cost to keep them running, plus durability. They never came back from a hard wreck, and their electrical system was a nightmare. Still a light year better than the Mori Siekis. They ended up buying Lodge & Shipleys, and firing a couple dozen engineers. KICK BACKS!
gary

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Weve had a bit better luck with okumas than that. I think we have 10 cadets, and 12 lb's. Also 8 4020 mills. Our management really likes okumas. Ive run a few of their mills and a half a dozen of the lathes. I like em. They are fast. Probably my favorite outta the machines we have.

I think our base models ran about 300-400k for the cadets and the lb's. I think the bigger twin turrets run from about 650-700k to 1m. They're definitely not cheap, especially when you start adding in all the gadgets that go along with them.

Hardinge machines are definitely very accurate but they are much harder to get parts and serviced than okumas.

 

[shortgrass]

I've had about all the laminated wood I can handle for one day, so I'll take time to respond. I don't think the OP has any intention of aquiring a CNC machining center. The advantage of a quality import is its metric capabilities. Older, American made lathes may or my not be capable of metric threading. If metric is not "in the cards" an older American made lathe may fit the bill. Chose wisely, you don't want a machine that you'll have to re-build, but one where you put some new belts on and change the oil in the gear boxes shouldn't be a deal breaker, either. Either way, be prepared to purchase a quality made chuck,,,, preferably one that mounts on a back plate so that it can be "trued" to the machine. Lathe chucks do wear out and those supplied withthe current crop of imports leave alot to be desired. Run with a *** for awhile, then a good one, the difference is easy to see. There's nothing wrong with an older machine as long as it's not been run into the ground. The skill is in the man, not the machine. I've cut minimum size chambers on lathes with "war production" tags on 'um. * war production" tag,,,,, machines purchased by the U.S. government during WWII to support the war effort *

 

[Deleted member 46119]

I would like to know what lathes are a good starting point. What size will work for action trueing and bolt, action, and barrel work. Basically looking for information on a lathe that will be used for action trueing and sorts and nothing real high tech but a basic simple lathe that will get the job done. Are there any types and models to avoid.

The professional machinists are great but....

I was taught to get the biggest highest quality lathe you can fit in your workspace and afford. At one point that was a Sherline. Now it's a PM1127V. I've checked and contoured barrels up to 30"x1.5" Sendero fit through the spindle to a point that I could safely and accurately chamber them. I am making a tail end spider and a spider chuck to hold barrels that large. My lathe spindle accepts D1-3 backing plates if I change the lugs to studs. Way cool for fitting chucks. The latest version is the PM1127-VF-LB 11" x 27" Variable speed motor with 2 ranges (V), power cross feed (F) and a larger spindle bore (LB). PM1127VF Lathe

"You can make small parts on a big lathe but you can't make big parts on a small lathe" that came with "You can take more off but you can't put more on moron"

Used is fine as has been said as long as you don't have to rebuild it. Chinese (as mine is) works and quality is improving.

Budget, budget, budget. If it's $1,500 then get the biggest best you can find for the money. If it's $15,000 then get the biggest best you can find for the money.

Guys have made incredible things with Harbor Fright lathes. You pays you money and you takes you choices.

 

[shortgrass]

Nothing smaller than the South Bend H10, anything larger than a lathe with a 14" swing gets unwieldy (tail stock gets too heavy to easily slide). Spindle bore no smaller in diameter than 1 3/8", bed length of 40" is handy but not required if all of your work will be through the head stock. Check spindle speed range, if you're a novice it needs to turn slow (like 50-70rpm) for threading to the shoulder. Speeds above 400-450rpm are usually not needed for barrel work or much of any other gunsmithing work. A quick change tool post is almost a must. The turret tool post that comes with the current crop of imports sucks (as do the chucks that come on those lathes, as I already mentioned). Turrent tool post belong on those long obsolete turret lathes used for production work. It's a "hobby machine", right? The real costs are in the work holding/tool holding and tooling itself. Set-up tools, like a large machinists level are an expense to cosider, too. A carpenters level for leveling any machine leaves a lot to be desired. You'll use that level more than once (I set mine across the ways about once a month just to ease my mind) as it takes awhile for a manual lathe to "settle in". There' always another tool that'd be handy (read more $$$$ to be spent on the hobby, $100 here, $50 there, $250 on smoething else) , you never seem to have it "all".

 

[Deleted member 46119]

If you are not going to profile barrels, IMO long bed is not required.

10" swing or larger is desired.
5" or larger chuck capacity.

You will out spend the lathe on tooling in short order.

As I see it, barrel spiders are going to be frequently used smithing tools. One for the spindle nose, one for the spindle tail. I am making my own spiders. Part of "going to the next level" with my machining. They are turned now I need to drill and tap for the set screws.

I will be making bolt and action spiders as well. Though I prefer the Manson tools for actual truing of actions. Finding the centerline of the bolt ways and checking the face of the action to it, is justification enough to make and acquire the tooling.

 

[shortgrass]

A "long" bed is 96"-120". The SB H10 I did some chambering on had bed length of 36" on it. Has a short head stock so no problem there, but I'd not wanted to use it to ream a shotgun barrel for threading for choke tubes or open a fixed choke. Profiling (contouring) a barrel blank is best left for those equipped to do it correctly. Lapping happens after the barrel is contoured,,, just ask any reputable barrel maker. The lathes used will out weigh a hobbiests lathe X 3-4 times. CNC "teach" lathes are usually used, today. No manual machine can "keep up" as no man alive can move as fast as stepper motors can. Let the pros do the contouring.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

For me long would be 40". The thought of a 120" omg LOL.

I've converted sherline to CNC then done semi production to .01mm. I'm no pro but as a computer programer g-code is a diddle.

My current machines will get converted some day. I like to learn the machine first.

A used and usable SB is a great option. A new Chinese is affordable and have come a long way. Old iron is still desired.