John Burns-Best of the West- equipment

[lerch]

You dont need all that stuff to do long range hunting, it may help but it is not required. A PDA is just something else to leave behind or go bad in the field. ACI is only needed when you encounter some serious angles, not a prob in OK.

Personnaly i like to find most of my drops myself instead of trusting a computer generated scenario to tell me.

All the high tech stuff is cool but what it comes down to is you a rifle and a object a certain distance away and you doing your best to kill the SOB

steve

 

[mikebob]

im pretty new here i have a leupold vx111 with the bdc on a 300 win mag. I have shot in many differ places and i sighted it in here in oklahoma 1900ft. I have never changed the knob or sight in, dialed a coyote in at 796 yrds in denver and dropped him no problem. Many people tell me it wont work in other altitudes or places. to prove it to one buddy i let him set up a plate at 1000yds and let him dial it for me,hit. then in our hunt in denver he set up a plate again at 1000yds and dialed it for me. three shots three dings. To be honest i did measure the distance from bullseyes in both places it was 6" lower in denver,but hay thats still in the kill zone. it may be a few inches differ at extreme ranges but in hunting were talking about kill zone size not bullseyes on targets

 

[Charles A]

How many people have any clue what the difference will be from ther baseline zero to 7,000ASL? How many people have the equipment, and know how to adjust for the difference?
Given a a 30cal 178gr with a BC of .525 at 3,000fps, there is less then one MOA difference between SAC zero and standard conditions at 7,000ASL, at 600yds. Thats about as big a difference in pressure you'll get under all but the most extreme conditions, and yet it acounts for less than four inches. 99% of the ones who jump up and down about being able to adjust for the conditions with there 1/4 MOA turrets, have no clue how to do it. Therefore they are no better off the someone with a BDC.


Unless your prone to switching loads, travel all over the country,(even then they can still work), or seriously shoot past 7-800yds, (even then they can still work), a BDC set up for your load and the area you hunt, can work. Is it the most ideal? Maybe, maybe not. But it will work.

 

[Buffalobob]

Hello Charles

long time, no see

You doing all right?

 

[Charles A]

Doing well! Thank you. Its been a busy year for us, but its starting to settle down for a few months.

Busy year for you too I gather. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif How are you and the family?

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
How many people have any clue what the difference will be from <font color="purple"> [sic] </font>ther baseline zero to 7,000ASL? How many people have the equipment, and know how to adjust for the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]
Who cares that few know these details. LRH is about those who do. The fact the masses are ignorant is no reason the readers of this forum should be.
[ QUOTE ]

Given a a 30cal 178gr with a BC of .525 at 3,000fps, there is less then one MOA difference between SAC zero and standard conditions at 7,000ASL, at 600yds.


[/ QUOTE ]
600 yards is not Long Range. A famous long range shooter and master gunsmith once wrote "we don't shoot rock-chucks at less than 800 yards".

The truth is that BDC's have only narrow scope.

[ QUOTE ]
Hello xxx long time, no see - Then latter XX replies Doing well! Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sort of SPAM adds nothing to to topic and is better relegated to offline communication. Many (most) of the us don't care to wade thru this SPAM.

 

[davkrat]

Has there ever been a real definition of long range? To some I believe 600 yards most certainly is long range. The majority of magazines you read put down anything past 400 yards as a last ditch shot. While I know 600 might be long to some I personally consider it long range. I do not have a rig capable of hitting accurately out past 1000 yards or if ti could I would not consider it very sporting as the energy would not be there to humanely kill an animal 100% of the time. At least that is what I believe and those are the set limits I have put on myself. If you have a big powerful .338 magnum capable of dropping an elk at 1000 yards so be it. Not erveryone does. This post was started to discuss whether or not BDC's work. I believe that on a typical accurized sporter used at rages out to 800 yards or so they should work fine. Some of the complaints in this post are rediculous like the guy who was supset the John Burns either rounded down or up to the nearest 1/4 MOA. What else are you supposed to do? If he had gone the other way in each situation there would have been more error! Then picking different cartridges that are not lasers to use as examples. Everyone has their own definition of what long range is and it should be based on THEIR equipment, THEIR capabilities and THEIR confidence in humanely killing an animal at THEIR maximum yardage. Me I believe that I can cleanly kill an animal in the 6-700 yard range with my .270 Win. At those ranges I believe a BDC will work fine, the changes in conditions from basic mountain altitudes and weather conditions will not have as extreme an effect as pushing it out to 1500 yards. That being said I do not want to carry all the gear required to effectively utilize the big heavy long range cannons like some of the guys on here use. To each their own.

 

[sebastian3784]

Hey brian, thanks for the info about the video, what are your thoughts on the matter, I think the NPR2 based system is more versatile and provides the shooter with a more consistent system of accurate shot placement. How far was that rock, what was the slope, the wind if I remember was 20mph. I hit it, you hit it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]

If you are serious in long range hunting you need.
An accurate range finder.
A PDA with the software or correct charts printed for all scenareos
a device like an ACI for measuring angles.
a scope level.

And a very accurate rifle with enough retained energy to cleanly dispatch the game likely to be encounted with a top quality scope with target turrets on it for fine adjustments or a good balistic reticle or both.

and the last most important thing is the knowlidge and experience of when and even more importent when not to take a shot.

Cheers Bill
Australia

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent list Bill! I agree with your last statement <font color="purple"> knowledge and experience </font> as most important.
While I have two ACIs and wouldn't leave home without one - much of the shooting I do at my friends ranch has a max angle of 5 degrees - and the COS(5) =~ .996 - so it's not always required.

You missed one item - perhaps the most important (after experience/knowledge) a wind meter. After testing several, I consider them all junk compared to my $65 Kestrel 1000

I'd also add a Harris bi-pod and pod-loc. I'm sure there are more and hoping folks will chime in.

Once again here is the analysis that thoroughly trounces the notion of BDCs

 

[Charles A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many people have any clue what the difference will be from <font color="purple"> [sic] </font>ther baseline zero to 7,000ASL? How many people have the equipment, and know how to adjust for the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares that few know these details. LRH is about those who do. The fact the masses are ignorant is no reason the readers of this forum should be.


<font color="blue"> The point is everyone complaining about BDC's don't even know how to adjust for conditions in the first place.</font>


600 yards is not Long Range. A famous long range shooter and master gunsmith once wrote "we don't shoot rock-chucks at less than 800 yards".


<font color="blue"> What is it then? Bow range? The truth is 99% of shots by people on this board are from 800 and in. </font>



The truth is that BDC's have only narrow scope.


<font color="blue"> Yep! From Georgia, to North Carolina, Colorado, Alaska, Arizona, Bosnia, Iraq, Afganistan, Africa, etc, etc... Given, the know how to use it. That "narrow scope" also just happens to be in the ranges this discussion is about. </font>



[ QUOTE ]
Hello xxx long time, no see - Then latter XX replies Doing well! Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]
This sort of SPAM adds nothing to to topic and is better relegated to offline communication. Many (most) of the us don't care to wade thru this SPAM.

[/ QUOTE ]


<font color="blue"> And most, probably, don't care to hear what you care about either. </font>

 

[nsb]

I fail to understand the militant opposition to BDC turrets. Is there a significant difference between 8000 feet and sea level? Bet your butt there is. I made up a paper sleeve for my target turret when I went deer huting. Plugged my stuff into the program for 2000ft, 30 degrees, and I was good to go. Worked great, had everything I needed for that trip elevation-wise. Had a windage cheat sheet stuck in my pocket in case I was shooting with a crosswind. Of course I only ran the numbers up to 750 yards with a personal limit for this trip of 500 yards, so I guess I wasn't even intending to hunt long range. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'll define long range shooting, feel free to disagree: Any time you have to make a substantial adjustments because of the distance, it is long range shooting. The elitist crap turns me off. 600 yards isn't long range? I'll hand you a rifle sighted in @ 200 yards, and let's see you hit paper @ 600 yards without working up ballistics adjustments, jackie. Sheesh.

 

[mikebob]

i may be wrong but from my exp. and using bal. programs for my other guns alt.,temp,does not matter. the pressure is what matters. If you guys that dont like the bdc would get a real b. pressure guage you wouldnt have to worry about alt. or temp. the b. pressure list is usually alt. corrected so get a real guage and you wouldnt have to have comp and all that crap. I think if you cant shoot a distance without a comp telling you what to do you should shoot. For my bdc i set targets up every 100yds for 1200yds. i wrote down the moa it took to hit each one in center, wrote down true b. pressure,(no alt. temp or any other crap). by the way i did it when it was 105 deg, I shot my buck sat at 826 yds and 32deg he ran about 10yds. I never used a comp or anything to set it up and it works 1000 times better than using exbal with my other guns. for wind i practice shooting it all differ direction and speed. i think if you have to have a wind meter to tell you how fast the wind is blowing you dont practice enough, what if it breaks your no longer a long range shooter your just guessing, same with bal programs and cheat sheets. your comp is shooting your gun not you. if you havnt practice a shot you shouldnt take it if you cant make it without aid. I practice shooting my gun at targets in differ wind that i dont even think about wind i just instictivly know where to hold. I think any one can take a gun and shoot fairly long ranges if something is telling them what to do, a real long range shooter practices enough he just knows. my son 11yrs old prctices with me so much he can hit a target at 700 yards with his 243 without any help from anything, or adjusting for wind he just knows himself and the gun. you wouldnt want our finest fighter pilots defending our country punching info into a comp to fig. out how to fly the thing.

 

[Hired Gun]

I used to do up drop charts for my expected conditions and over the years it has worked well enough for the sub 400 yard shooting I was doing. I have recently bought a BDC knob from Kenton for my local average conditions. I live at about 20' above sea level. The highest I hunt around here is 2000' max. Usually between 500 and 1000'. It almost never freezes during my hunting season nor goes over 70 degrees. I bought my knob for 750' elevation and 55 degrees. I adjust my load to keep it as close to 3100 fps as I can with 200 grain Accubonds that groups consistently under 1/2 MOA to 300 yards, I zero at 300. I then dial with my BDC up or down for the shot. If I were to plan a hunt with extreme different conditions I would buy a new knob for that hunt and rezero on location.

I practiced on steel with this setup quite a bit (almost every week end work and weather permitting) and have grown to have much confidence in this system out to 700 yards or so for elevation. I'm still learning about wind and carry charts for that. It gets me real close and I have learned to judge wind speed pretty good by it's effects on the available terrain.

For angle shots I am currently using a Bushnell ARC range finder that calls out the angle. I then use a $10 scientific calculator to come up with the cosine multiplier to get me the true horizontal distance and that is the figure I dial my BDC too.

I haven't killed any game with it but have sure put the hurt on numerous pop cans, water bottles and steel targets. It's only a matter of time till I get presented with an acceptable set of conditions to feel right about pulling the trigger but you can bet when I do I won't hit very far from my intended bulls eye. For me the kill zone on that particular animal must be near 4 times my margin of error for sure. That's why I myself can't just yank the trigger on any animal in my sights. For me the BDC dial save me from having to count clicks or covert the inch marks to drop corrections from a chart or ballistic program. I do plan to get a PDA set up with one eventually. Right now I'm investing in better optics to better locate the game and a Swarovski range finder to extend my ranging capabilities. I'm am taking what I have learned from this site and proving it in the field.

 

[Guest]

BDC Myth exposed
[ QUOTE ]
you wouldnt want our finest fighter pilots defending our country punching info into a comp to fig. out how to fly the thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heck no, the latest fighters and stealth bombers are so inherently unstable that they can't be flown without a computer. No punching necessary - the computer flys the thing. Now you wouldn't want to return to the pre-computer inferior systems would you?

You are correct in P is all that matter. I keep my barometric gauge set to sea level.

[ QUOTE ]
i think if you have to have a wind meter to tell you how fast the wind is blowing you dont practice enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm calling BS on that one. How close (in abs vel) can you get?

[ QUOTE ]
what if it breaks your no longer a long range shooter your just guessing, same with bal programs and cheat sheets. your comp is shooting your gun not you..

[/ QUOTE ] What if your gun or scope or rangefinder breaks? Using a modern center-fire cartridge/gun is cheating. Real men use bows and arrows - and not those cheating compounds either. Unless you make the bow yourself, you're a sissy cheater. I guess you need to tell those members of the 2K club they are cheaters and not true LR shooters. (I'm not only a sissy for using a modern/custom firearm, kestrel wind meter, rangefinder, PDA, bi-pod) - I'm also a kick sissy (using a muzzle break).

[ QUOTE ]
Hired Gun writes: (good post - I agree with much of what you have written) I then use a $10 scientific calculator to come up with the cosine multiplier to get me the true horizontal distance and that is the figure I dial my BDC too. .

[/ QUOTE ] That's an improvement from LOS distance but significantly inferior to the McDonald/Almgren approach Sierra uses

[ QUOTE ]
For me the BDC dial save me from having to count clicks .

[/ QUOTE ] For the point blank ranges (sub long range, less than 800 yards) - who needs to count more than 2 clicks with the NP-R2 reticle ? For true long range ( 1K to 1.5K yards ) at most I have to count 4 clicks
[ QUOTE ]
a Swarovski range finder to extend my ranging capabilities .

[/ QUOTE ]
My recommendation. Unless you're shooting with the big boys ( 1.3K and farther) just get a Bushnell Elite 1500 Laser Rangefinder (and verify it ranges accurately to 1,400 yards. The range finding components are being commoditized and will only drop in price (unlike good glass).
The BDC Myth has been exposed If you find a flaw in the black and white - in the data cited - mail the webmaster. I generally loath cliches, but ignorance really is bliss.