Is it the truth, B.S., B.R., or Ego?? Questions..

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Thats a decent group Ric.But I wonder what it would do if you shot five shots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is my post to you Ric that got your panties in a bunch.Nothing was said about 10 shots..I gave you props Ric.I said it was a decent group.But it's not impressive.There is no doubt in my mind that someone with any reloading abilty can make a good shooting factory gun shoot the same.If you got a problem with that I'm sorry.But who has the ego now.........

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Your shooting a custom hunting rifle, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So was I...

 

[6.5 Bandit]

ok here is my take on this whole group mess... Depending on what you are planning to do with your gun is what your after.. In other words if I want to have a chance to win @ williamsport 1000br my gun better be shooting right around 4" 10 shot groups and better.. Why? because if its not your not gonna win bottom line.. So who the hell cares what 3 4 or 5 shots can do its 10 that counts in that game..

Now if im building a Tactical type hunting rig I am not gonna be concerned about 10 shot groups.. Why? 1 its not built for BR.. 2 its a tactical rig and made to get drug around and get dirty so I am not gonna be as tight on chambers like I am with my BR guns.. 3 will be shooting off of bi-pods or maybe sticks resting on a tree or something.. so 3-5 shot groups that are under .5 MOA @ 100yds would be fine for me.. But that is the intended purpose of that gun.. I wouldnt shoot it in a match were 10shots are needed and 4" or lower groups are needed to win.. I may for fun but wouldnt count on wining.. But here is the kicker the BR guns also make great hunting rifles while tactical rigs dont always make great BR rifles.. Ric you got some mighty fine groups with that rifle dont be ashamed of them either.. I think people just need to take a look at what the gun was built for if its not built to BR specs dont expect it to hold up with BR standards...

6.5 Bandit

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

AJ,

I am calm.. now.. caught be before my first cup of coffee.. bad idea...

you are right they are comparing apples to oranges.. but they can't or won't admit it.

Boyd,

My original post was not bashing or bad mouthing anything.. it was an observation that has all the truth in the world to it and I know many if not the majority here agree. I wasn't refereing to my groups but to numerous others here as well. I wasn't really upset in my first post but really debating wehter or not to post it.. buu I felt it had to be said after some e-mails I have recieved not just this time but other times as well even when things were said about someone elses groups. It is clear that any time someone posted a group it was automatically compared to a 10 shot string at "WP" or somthing to the degree of.. that good but now try "X" number of shots...
well thats a peaches and cream if we all had BR guns and shot with $600 rests off concrete benchs but we don't. I have yet to see the " die hard "WP" " boys put up pics of their rifles shooting tiny groups off a bi-pod .. and I'll go on record right now and be the first to give an "atta boy" to anyone shooting 5" or less over 500 yards.. from a prone postiion off a bi-pod thats just not that easy to get a good group unless you know you stuff.
My whole entire point in this thread was..
WHAT IS THE CRITERIA SET FORTH TO VALIDATE A GOOD RIFLE OR GOOD GROUP? INTHE CORECT SITUATION AND CONTEXT.

and the coment of that you would expect a factory gun to shoot like that.. maybe once in a blue moon... or the occasional great factory stick.. but it is easy to see I actually pulled one shot in that 770 group or the wind caught me. 2 shots are within 1.5" of each other and I know they were the 1st and 3rd shot. What would you smith reactlike if I said his rifles shoot like a factory stick? Man that was unfounded, untrue and pretty ballsie! I have yet to see numerous factory sticks shoot like that... and you can't compare those factory sticks you talking about like they are used in the LR video's those rests are **** near like a bench situation. I know I shot from them!

Like I said until you guys are shooting like that off a pi-pod it is hard to validate your response. Not groups from a bench or an ultimate tri-pod.. prone on the ground... with a bi-pod..I you have done this or can do it.. hell tell me or show me.. I'll give props...

ask JB he just shot 5 shots at 300 from a bi-pod.. it just ain't as easy as a concrete bench....


JB.. I mag fed all my groups.. I tend to shoot like I would in a hunting situation... I think you know that it ain't as easy as ya may think.

the 300WSM only holds 3 so thats why I have really only shot 3 shots from both rifles...

6.5 Bandit,
See you get what I am saying! I agree that some BR guns would make great hunting rifles but.. how many guys do you see willing to expose their 1K Br gun to the eliments and dirt of hunting? So may but you know the rifle is kept all warm and fuzzy until they are ready for a shot... How many of them do you see screw on a bi-pod to the end of it?

but don't worry boys.. I will ( if I have the time and the weather cooperates ) be shooting 5 and 10 shot groups this weekend.


back to my original point and then I'm off the soap box....

1. What validates a good group?
2. What validates a good rifle?
3. How many shots make it valid or accepted?

does anyone consider the set up shooting situation and conditions when guys are posting the pics?


All I want is for the masses here to keep things relative..and in perspective. We are a select diverse group... who has it tough enough

[ 02-26-2004: Message edited by: *WyoWhisper* ]

 

[Boyd Heaton]

No where in my post did I COMPARE Ric's gun to ten shot groups or BR guns.If he were to have shot five shots.I think we all know what the outcome would have been.BIGGER.If you are happy with the gun and group Ric I am happy for you.I myself would rather buy a 500 dollar Savage that would do the same thing.Then spend a few thousand dollar on a Decent shooting custom rig...Enjoy your gun......

 

[Darryl Cassel]

Ric

Now that things have settled down a tad let me add something that was mentioned and some other thoughts.

There have been some good answers from JB and 6.5.

We "are" comparing apples to oranges here. The Tactical rifle was not meant to be a
benchrest style rifle however many bench guns are used for Longrange hunting.

I think for testing purposes, a 5 shot group should be used and a "Bench" and rests
should be used at "first" to get the "full" potential of even "your" tactical rifle. Then after that, go to the bi-pod and see what you can do with it with the bi-pod on.
It may "not" shoot any better from the bench?

As per the factory rifles shooting good groups. Yes, I have seen Sendaros and 40X remingtons shoot every bit as good as some of the groups I have seen posted here from the Tactical types, yours included.

Not sure if they would be consistant as yours but, I believe they would with a bi-pod attached as you like to shoot. A good test would be for "you" to shoot each type and cpmpare the two on the same day and near the same time. Every shooter is different.

I mentioned before that I saw a Sendaro win the light gun class at Williamsport with a 10 shot 8" group. Some factory guns will do that. His 100 yard group was very small.
I know that the 40X (have had many) will shoot as good as many custom tactical guns do. Not all but, many. It depends on the shooter, the loading he does and conditions that day. The quality is very good in the 40x.

You mentioned helping the new guy on here.
Cost for a custom gun such as yours, probably $2000.00 or more.
I think most newbies would opt to buy a Sendaro for $600.00 or a 40X for $1000.00 rather then go the route for a custom job when the Factory will probably do the same thing especially at the 100 yard and 700 yard mark. We are talking hunting here.
I think you know which one most on this forum will buy especially if they are a newbie? If your wanting to help the new guy, then we must give credit to the factory rifle also as a hunting style rifle that you
can attach a bi-pod on. I have a factory Sendaro in the 300 Weatherby rifle that would be a fine 1000 yard rifle for hunting and it just sits in my closet.

As per Boyds fine 5 shot group with the 300 RUM (I think) and 240 gr bullets.
The gun is not a full custom as you may think if it's the one I think it was.
That rifle has the lowly Mauser action, a long stainless barrel and a chunk of wood that's not that great.

At 100 yards it does well but, if I remember correctly, it did not shoot that well at 1000 yards and that's when he went to the 300 WSM and shortened the barrel. Boyd will correct me if I'm wrong. That group could have been with the rechambered 300WSM using the 240 gr but, I don't think so.

Your group from a bi-pod was a decent group. Your rifle is made for hunting and if it's good enough for you, that's all that counts.

I do think that 5 shots should be the proving grounds for any custom gun that you want to see the potential it has and it should be shot from a bench and rests "at first."
This procedure will give you the confidence in the rifle and know in your own mind that if you shoot a bad group with a bi-pod on
after you have proven that the rifle is a tack driver, it's either shooter error, condition changes, loading problems or a host of other things. Could be the bi-pod on a very hard surface to.

You don't have to try 10 shots with that rifle. It will be fine for the intended purpose it was made for as it is and the groups it is shooting.

Later
DC

 

[BountyHunter]

Ric

That is like asking the question which is the better car, a NASCAR car, a Indy car, dirt track car or a plane jane ford or chevy.

Each has certain applications. for example no one should expect a Rem mountain rifle with pencil thin barrel shoot as tight (take your pick 3, 5, or 10) as a BR gun with 1" barrel.

I generally for hunting gun look for cold bore shot on the X and reasonably tight slow fire 3 or 5 shot group. Even then I always test at least 3-4 times to confirm and on different days.

My br guns, I am only looking for tight groups. Depending on conditions I have shot as few as 3 sighters in 6 minute period or as many as 10-12. I like to take test shots in rapidly changing conditions to notice the change from my selected and hopefully final condition before record fire.

If I have a heavy barrel gun that should shoot sub .5 and I have a 3 shot group with one out, think I am going to shoot 2 more to see what they do. I think heavy more accurate guns should be tested with 5 shot groups to confirm accuracy, no heat induced or barrel bedding problems.

Bottom line is I look for consistency to whatever "standard" I am expecting that gun to shoot.

BH

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>As per Boyds fine 5 shot group with the 300 RUM (I think) and 240 gr bullets.
The gun is not a full custom as you may think if it's the one I think it was.
That rifle has the lowly Mauser action, a long stainless barrel and a chunk of wood that's not that great.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes you are correct.And that gun did no better than 10" at 1000 yards with that load.Quote from Ric <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>What would you smith reactlike if I said his rifles shoot like a factory stick? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He would'nt be my smith,cause I would find one that could build a great shooting gun.But I do not have that problem

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Man that was unfounded, untrue and pretty ballsie! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have seen a NUMBER of factory guns that will shoot groups that small at that yardage <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Ric--I think you are after something that doesnt exist. There is no hard and fast rule for validating a rifle.
further, groups from a cold bore are a totally different animal than a warm gun.

I'll put this up for scrutiny:

1K BR gun -- 5-10 shot groups --

HB tactical gun--5 mags full (mag plus one in the hole that is) from a bipod

Varmint gun - 5-5shot groups from a benchrest, then if using a bipod for hunting, 5 groups from a bipod.

sporter/hunting gun - 5 three shot groups, mag fed, cold bore every time.

sound like a good outline?

I really think though, what your after is impossible, and subjective.

Keep shooting and posting, I will, and so can anyone else that wants to back up their mouth

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good enough

 

[Brent]

JB's .5 MOA AVERAGE for 3,5 and 10 shot groups -

First, that's a pretty fair way to look at it in my opinion, FWIW.

The one thing I'd add to that is that they all be compared at the same range????

I mean, this would mean much different things at 100 yards verses 1000 yards, right????

I really hate dealing with averages though, a cieling, or maximum group size is best IMO.

The other question -
Vertical or horizontal spread maximum????
To me, this means more than group size measured diaganally or whatever, although I record all three.

If a short range BR guy said it should shoot in the 1's, in good conditions, he'd probably be right, from a bench, with flags, in a good solid rest, free recoil likely, with a 6PPC.

Shoot that 6PPC with one of those things removed at a time to quantify how much the group opens up with each of the less than ideal circumstances, then what's it amount to? Then toss the 6PPC for the 300WSM or what have you, then where are you?

3 shot groups (starting cold on each), vertical spread only, 5 groups or more, OFF BI-POD.

Under .3 MOA at 300 yards
Under .4 MOA at 500 yards
Under .8 MOA at 1000 yards

That would be spectacular in my book!


Under .5 MOA at 300 yards
Under .6 MOA at 500 yards
Under 1 MOA at 1000 yards

That's pretty **** good in my book!


Under .7 MOA at 300 yards
Under .8 MOA at 500 yards
Under 1.2 MOA at 1000 yards

Still very good in my book!


Under .9 MOA at 300 yards
Under 1 MOA at 500 yards
Under 1.5 MOA at 1000 yards

Good progress, but I'd work on it more if I thought it'd help. About what I'd expect with a larger caliber factory stick with some load work.


Feel free to disagree.

With a little thought, that's just a wild *** guess based on my experience, nothing more.

I said vertical only, so if wind is a factor you'll have to figure that for yourself. Wind is far too different in every situation to compare with someone elses performance unless you're shooting side by side that day, IMHO. Evaluate yourself objectively and call your shots, works for me.

Ric,
So far, I've got from Boyd that .56 MOA at 770 yards, 3 shot groups, is on average, what his buddies 3 rifles will do, and I think that's about all you're going to get from him. My suggestion is, move on for some more input from those that want to share it concerning the topic at hand.

Darryl does make some good points. Have you any benchmarks for accuracy, Darryl? I know you don't shoot from a bi-pod much, but for the record, what would you consider OK, good, and exceptional shooting from a bi-pod?

I think this is a great topic, and when I first started out shooting LR it meant a lot more to me to know this when I wasn't sure what to expect from my rig. Now, I've got a much better idea from my own testing, others still are very helpfull if all the details are known.

The 5 and 10 shot string accuracy at 1K yd BR are somewhat helpfull to read about, but not really if you never shoot that many in the fast pace they often do, from a different rest, etc. Even less so if you shoot your factory barreled rifle that might be just so-so.

I hope that everyone on the board chimes in here with their perspective on this!

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Ric,
So far, I've got from Boyd that .56 MOA at 770 yards, 3 shot groups, is on average, what his buddies 3 rifles will do, and I think that's about all you're going to get from him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My shooting abilty is public knowledge.If you would like to try me sometime feel free.Us BR guys can shoot from bi-pods also.

 

[Brent]

Boyd,
This has nothing to do with your shooting ability, or anyone elses.

There were questions that were asked by Ric. Why don't you participate and answer them?

 

[Boyd Heaton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>There were questions that were asked by Ric. Why don't you participate and answer them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>O.K here goes <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Boyd,
Now, what are "your" guidlines exactly, and why? I think that's what this thread is really all about??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My guide lines are,a full on custom gun should shoot better than a good shooting factory gun...Which I did not see in the group Ric posted.Thats all.

 

[*WyoWhisper*]

Boyd,

you tend to make things personal or take it to a personal level with alot of your replies. I'm OK with that... but I need an explaination on this..

""I think we all know what the outcome would have been.BIGGER""

What did you base this on and how did you come to this conclusion?


I understand what I am asking is a difficult subject...
Somehow Boyd thought my original post was directed at him.. even though it wasn't.

Brent, DC, BH, JB and others are on the right track... there has to be some sort of acceptable criteria to evaluate a rifle and shooter. I feel it is worth discussing and arriving at an outline...

 

[Boyd Heaton]

Ric you made things personal by starting this post in the first place.Just because a BR shooter said "TRY FIVE SHOTS NEXT TIME".Then you threw a fit saying if a gun won't shoot a good ten shot group it won't get respect.No where did I ever say that.Yes your gun shoots good.But not great. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>""I think we all know what the outcome would have been.BIGGER""

What did you base this on and how did you come to this conclusion?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Try it and find out.Its based on 1000's of rounds shot out of "GREAT" shooting guns as well as "GOOD SHOOTING guns. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Brent, DC, BH, JB and others are on the right track... there has to be some sort of acceptable criteria to evaluate a rifle and shooter. I feel it is worth discussing and arriving at an outline...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My criteria is a full custom gun shoud shoot better than a good shooting factory gun.But I have yet to see that.