Is a scope level needed?

[Greyfox]

Some people naturally have a sense/eye for plumb/level/square. A lot don't.

I do and always have, but my dedicated long range rifles all have a scope level or rail mounted level.

Cheap insurance and if you have time to double check yourself it's well worth the minimal investment and time to properly install one.

I agree with this. I make no claim to being a master at this, but LR shooters seem to spend lots time big $$ building very accurate rifles, using sophisticated RF's, measuring density pressure, angles, precise loads, scopes,etc. I think hunting at long range is an absolute game of precision, and attention to detail. Why negate all of that with one or two degrees of rifle cant in unpredictable hunting terrain when it that can be dealt with for $60 and two seconds of time. Not such a big deal out to 500-600 yards, but once you get past 700 yards with 5+ feet of sight elevation, seemingly small details like this can make the difference on whether that big buck goes down, or wags his tail at you and heads to the next county. IMO.

 

[RMulhern]

The rifle can be canted to hell and back....as long as the scope is leveled from shot to shot!

Read the above! Did I say anything about a 'level' NOT being used?? NO! David Tubb cants his rifle in prone and offhand to better fit his body position. Think he told me once he offsets his rear and front sight at 7 degrees. Many other competitive shooters also cant the rifle while in position BUT they also use a level to ascertain that the rifle is held the same from shot to shot!!

Tubb Precision Bubblevel

 

[Scot E]

Interesting thread. Really surprised to see how many guys don't buy into the benefits of a level. Very surprised. If you are shooting LR, beyond 600 yards, or at small objects they are a necessity IMO for any kind of precision shooting.

I have yet to see anyone who can level a reticle sufficiently, - 2 degrees error without a bubble when there is varying angles of terrain in their background.

Under 400 yards or so on big game I don't worry too much unless I have the time then I always check it. On chucks, prairie dogs, and yotes.... Every time!

 

[Pdvdh]

Read the above! Did I say anything about a 'level' NOT being used?? NO! David Tubb cants his rifle in prone and offhand to better fit his body position. Think he told me once he offsets his rear and front sight at 7 degrees. Many other competitive shooters also cant the rifle while in position BUT they also use a level to ascertain that the rifle is held the same from shot to shot!!

Tubb Precision Bubblevel

How many different yardages does David Tubb shoot in his competition? I believe the answer is one (1). And does David Tubb get sighter shots before firing his counting shots for score? I believe the answer is yes. If a person only shoots at one range, and sights in for that range with practice rounds before firing the shot that counts, your statement of "to hell with the worry about rifle cant" has very limited merit. I'll give you this: it's possible to position the gun upside down or at any other any angle of constant cant, if the rifle is planted in a fixed vise and corrected to POI immediately prior to firing the shot that counts.

Ask David Tubbs if he adds 7 degrees of cant to his hunting rifle, when intending to engage at variable and unknown distances across variable terrain. Or ask military snipers if they advise that snipers mount their scopes canted. Or ask long range hunters how many of them purposely add 7 degrees of cant to their rifle setups.

A rifle canted 7 degrees serves no beneficial purpose to a hunter encountering game under a multitude of ranges, slopes, and terrain. So why post it on a Forum dedicated to Long Range Hunting, and then seek to justify the statement by example of benchrest competition?

"The rifle can be canted to hell and back....as long as the scope is leveled from shot to shot!" PROVIDED that the canted rifle and scope are never used to shoot at a game animal at any distance other than the distance they were zeroed for. Because a canted rifle adds a leftward or rightward drift to each bullet fired, as well as an elevation drift, that rifles set up without cant do not experience.

Look again at the diagram in Post #63, and explain why any long range hunter would benefit from firing at game with their rifle canted.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

It's not so much a matter of buying is... I just believe in individual differences, and it's hard to imagine a world where all people need a level to square up their reticle.... Some have to have an innate or natural ability to do this... Without the aid of a level. Just saying. I did slap a level on night before last... So I'll see for myself if I'm one of the former... Or latter.

 

[Pdvdh]

It's not so much a matter of buying is... I just believe in individual differences.

There are causes where different serves no beneficial purpose, other than to maintain the claim of "different". Different is unlikely to disappoint out to 500yds. All else being equal, you will under perform in variable terrain at 1000yds.

You've mentioned 600yd maximums. Be different. The only consequences are you'll save the money for the scope level, you'll have one less item to tend to prior to the shot, and you'll be slightly less accurate over the long haul, than with a carefully plumbed rifle.

 

[RMulhern]

How many different yardages does David Tubb shoot in his competition? I believe the answer is one (1). And does David Tubb get sighter shots before firing his counting shots for score? I believe the answer is yes. If a person only shoots at one range, and sights in for that range with practice rounds before firing the shot that counts, your statement of "to hell with the worry about rifle cant" has very limited merit. I'll give you this: it's possible to position the gun upside down or at any other any angle of constant cant, if the rifle is planted in a fixed vise and corrected to POI immediately prior to firing the shot that counts.

Ask David Tubbs if he adds 7 degrees of cant to his hunting rifle, when intending to engage at variable and unknown distances across variable terrain. Or ask military snipers if they advise that snipers mount their scopes canted. Or ask long range hunters how many of them purposely add 7 degrees of cant to their rifle setups.

A rifle canted 7 degrees serves no beneficial purpose to a hunter encountering game under a multitude of ranges, slopes, and terrain. So why post it on a Forum dedicated to Long Range Hunting, and then seek to justify the statement by example of benchrest competition?

"The rifle can be canted to hell and back....as long as the scope is leveled from shot to shot!" PROVIDED that the canted rifle and scope are never used to shoot at a game animal at any distance other than the distance they were zeroed for. Because a canted rifle adds a leftward or rightward drift to each bullet fired, as well as an elevation drift, that rifles set up without cant do not experience.

Look again at the diagram in Post #63, and explain why any long range hunter would benefit from firing at game with their rifle canted.

And....you STILL don't get it!!

You're as dense on this as the distances shot in competition!!

 

[Michael Eichele]

And....you STILL don't get it!!

You're as dense on this as the distances shot in competition!!

I think you're the one not getting it. Study up on geometry and trigonometry and you'll get it.

The method Tubb is using is great with sighter shots at a given range. Change the range and the horizontal poi changes with it. Unless you have a drift chart for incremental ranges, that method is dangerous. It's possible to create a chart showing your left or right impacts sure but you'd still have to look at it and make an adjustment. May as well just level everything up use a level.

 

[Pdvdh]

And....you STILL don't get it!!

You're as dense on this as the distances shot in competition!!

Is that it? Did you find one inconsistency in my post questioning and pointing out the differences between competition shooting and long range hunting, in order to validate the error of your original post - that rifle cant should not be a concern? Some inconsistency - unexplained - was enough to disregard and discredit the rest of the information in my posts? Congratulations, you've demonstrated your correct - in your own mind. No further explanation required...

Yeah, I don't get it. If an inconsistency on either of the two questions I asked about competitive shooting suddenly makes David Tubb's style and technique in competitive shooting applicable to canted rifle use for long range hunting, then I'll be dense. I want to give you that to salvage your injured ego.

 

[BergerBoy]

Bryan Litz explains this very well in one of his books. According to Litz, a three deg cant will produce a .6" horizontal error at 200 yards with a .308. I use a level and check it with each shot, even at 100 yards. That's probably a bit OCD but I prefer to make leveling my scope part of my routine so when I'm shooting long range, I do it without even thinking about it.

I agree. Todd Hodnett explains it well in Magpul's video "Art of the Precision Rifle. It is a GREAT video, VERY informative.

 

[RMulhern]

Is that it? Did you find one inconsistency in my post questioning and pointing out the differences between competition shooting and long range hunting, in order to validate the error of your original post - that rifle cant should not be a concern? Some inconsistency - unexplained - was enough to disregard and discredit the rest of the information in my posts? Congratulations, you've demonstrated your correct - in your own mind. No further explanation required...

Yeah, I don't get it. If an inconsistency on either of the two questions I asked about competitive shooting suddenly makes David Tubb's style and technique in competitive shooting applicable to canted rifle use for long range hunting, then I'll be dense. I want to give you that to salvage your injured ego.

Bye!

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

I agree. Todd Hodnett explains it well in Magpul's video "Art of the Precision Rifle. It is a GREAT video, VERY informative.

Thanks for the heads up on the video... Downloading it now.

 

[aroshtr]

I really believe in a hunting situation on uneven terrain, there would be very few people that could consistently keep a scope level enough for long range precise shooting. Sure at ranges less than 600 yards, and large animal targets, it is not a necessity. However why not have one there at your disposal just in case you want to shoot farther, or use it to make a more precise shot?

As far as the scope and bore being in perfect alignment as phorath is describing, I think it may be blown a little out of portion. His example of the scope at a 90* angle to the bore clearly shows the problems with alignment. However lets do a more realistic example.

If David Tubbs set a hunting rifle up with the gun at a 7* cant with a scope that was mounted 1.75" above the bore. The bore would only be offset from the scope about .21". So if the windage was zeroed in at 100 yards you would have a windage error of .21" at 200, .84" at 500, and 1.89" at 1000 yards. If you zero your windage at a further distance like 400 yards, your windage error would be: .105" at 200, 0.0" at 400, .105" again at 600, and only .315" at 1000 yards.

So in my opinion if you are willing to zero your windage at a further distance like 400 or 500 yards, and are not excessively canting the rifle, bore to scope alignment really is not a significant factor. Even if you zero in at 200 yards like most of us do, you have less than an inch of windage error at 1000 yards with this example.

 

[WildRose]

I really believe in a hunting situation on uneven terrain, there would be very few people that could consistently keep a scope level enough for long range precise shooting. Sure at ranges less than 600 yards, and large animal targets, it is not a necessity. However why not have one there at your disposal just in case you want to shoot farther, or use it to make a more precise shot?

As far as the scope and bore being in perfect alignment as phorath is describing, I think it may be blown a little out of portion. His example of the scope at a 90* angle to the bore clearly shows the problems with alignment. However lets do a more realistic example.

If David Tubbs set a hunting rifle up with the gun at a 7* cant with a scope that was mounted 1.75" above the bore. The bore would only be offset from the scope about .21". So if the windage was zeroed in at 100 yards you would have a windage error of .21" at 200, .84" at 500, and 1.89" at 1000 yards. If you zero your windage at a further distance like 400 yards, your windage error would be: .105" at 200, 0.0" at 400, .105" again at 600, and only .315" at 1000 yards.

So in my opinion if you are willing to zero your windage at a further distance like 400 or 500 yards, and are not excessively canting the rifle, bore to scope alignment really is not a significant factor. Even if you zero in at 200 yards like most of us do, you have less than an inch of windage error at 1000 yards with this example.

Admittedly I'm not a math genius but..

1 deg cant equals 1 moa of cant. 360 deg in a circle 360 minutes in the same circle.

That being the case 7 deg of cant would equal 7MOA error at any range.