Is a scope level needed?

[cohunter14]

Simple question: do you use a level when mounting your scope? Of course you do. Why? To make sure it is level. Why not do the same thing when shooting? I understand not doing it for shorter shots, but when it matters I just don't understand not using it. If you don't use it, you might as well just slap your scope on your rifle without a level as well. A very inexpensive piece of equipment to ensure accuracy in my opinion.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Hmmm.... Simple answer... Sure I use a level when mounting my scope.... So that when I am looking through my scope later.... And vertically square it up on a target (without a scope level)..., my vertical and horizontal adjustments are correct!

Ok.... So I purchased a Hollands signature series anti-cant level... So that I can compare results at distance on both my 300wm and 308 to see if there really is that big a difference. Gonna try a couple of groups without... And then try a couple of groups with the level. Very interested if it makes any difference. If not... Will have a used one up for sale in the classifieds and I expect one of you to pick it up from me

 

[Greyfox]

Hmmm.... Simple answer... Sure I use a level when mounting my scope.... So that when I am looking through my scope later.... And vertically square it up on a target (without a scope level)..., my vertical and horizontal adjustments are correct!

Ok.... So I purchased a Hollands signature series anti-cant level... So that I can compare results at distance on both my 300wm and 308 to see if there really is that big a difference. Gonna try a couple of groups without... And then try a couple of groups with the level. Very interested if it makes any difference. If not... Will have a used one up for sale in the classifieds and I expect one of you to pick it up from me

Im not to sure that your test would be a good verification of a levels value. I think that it is much easier to eyeball a plum crosshair when shooting groups in a static environment. The real value comes in when rushed and under pressure when hunting in varied terrain conditions and different optical perspectives can result in it being more difficult to establish vertical. IMO.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Here's an even simpler test.
Find the absolute best shooter you know or have heard of and look at his rifle.

 

[7magcreedmoor]

Here's an even simpler test.
Find the absolute best shooter you know or have heard of and look at his rifle.

What he said.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Here's an even simpler test.
Find the absolute best shooter you know or have heard of and look at his rifle.

I've read numerous posts from many of you guys over the years.... But bushman & 7mag... This is probably the worst advice I've ever seen which I'm very sorry to say. You seem like a bright and thoughtful people, but why would I care if the best shooter I know or in the world uses a level? If he/she does.... Is that somehow going to make a difference to me in the field. I suspect as soon as I mount it and attempt to shoot some groups, I'll know pretty instantly whether a level makes a difference or not.... Which I believe is probably the best test there is.

The best shooter might also take a laxative every morning and kiss his boyfriend goodbye before he goes shooting. Works for him.... But I eat plenty of fibre and I'm not interested in dudes. Pretty sure I'd have a sh*tty day and be too unsettled to shoot anything at all if I followed his example.

 

[7magcreedmoor]

Allow me to rephrase. If the best shooters almost always turn out to be using a level on the rig, it is probably because they learned the hard way that the bubble always knows where verticle is, but our human eyes and inner ears can be and sometimes do get mislead. If pilots use the artificial horizon for this reason, and I can choose to use a properly calibrated level to exercise better control over an important variable and also an angle measuring tool to determine uphill-downhill conditions, then I will. You do not have to.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Allow me to rephrase. If the best shooters almost always turn out to be using a level on the rig, it is probably because they learned the hard way that the bubble always knows where verticle is, but our human eyes and inner ears can be and sometimes do get mislead. If pilots use the artificial horizon for this reason, and I can choose to use a properly calibrated level to exercise better control over an important variable and also an angle measuring tool to determine uphill-downhill conditions, then I will. You do not have to.

Yeah.... That makes sense 7mag. I ended up buying a level because of all you and your strong responses to this thread, most of which firmly feel a level is beneficial. I intend to try it out at distance and see if it makes some improvement in my long distance game. I think I'll try it on flat ground, angled slopes and then for some quick setups. If it helps, or not... I'll definitely update this thread once I have time to thoroughly test it.

I've learned a lot from the people here on this forum and even though I don't believe I have an issue determining cant, I might be off base, and a few dollars to really test it out isn't going to break the bank, and might improve my overall groups. I would have no complaints if I was wrong on this one.... Because the end result would be better shooting at distance, which is one of the main reasons I joined this forum in the first place.

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Typically the best shooters got that way from paying attention to the things that matter, and cotrolling every variable that effects their shots. So if every one of them has a level on their scope....

But hey no worries ill take my ****** advise and walk.

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

Typically the best shooters got that way from paying attention to the things that matter, and cotrolling every variable that effects their shots. So if every one of them has a level on their scope....

But hey no worries ill take my ****** advise and walk.

Heya CB... I've read numerous posts from you where you have given great advice so please don't take offense. It's just when I read that I should just do what works for the best shooters, well, that just didn't sit well with me as a simple solution. Would rather find what works best for me, which may or may not be what works best for the best shooter.

I've enjoyed and found your posts helpful in the past so I hope you keep it up, but I probably won't agree with everything you have to say... And I'm sure that the same is true about my posts when you read them. It wasn't my intention to be rude... But my wife tells me sometimes I'm too direct. It's a failing and a blessing depending on the situation. My sincerest apologies if I've stepped on your toes.

 

[RMulhern]

The rifle can be canted to hell and back....as long as the scope is leveled from shot to shot!

 

[Canadian Bushman]

Heya CB... I've read numerous posts from you where you have given great advice so please don't take offense. It's just when I read that I should just do what works for the best shooters, well, that just didn't sit well with me as a simple solution. Would rather find what works best for me, which may or may not be what works best for the best shooter.

I've enjoyed and found your posts helpful in the past so I hope you keep it up, but I probably won't agree with everything you have to say... And I'm sure that the same is true about my posts when you read them. It wasn't my intention to be rude... But my wife tells me sometimes I'm too direct. It's a failing and a blessing depending on the situation. My sincerest apologies if I've stepped on your toes.

I didnt say just do what the best shooters do, its just not that easy. Isaid look at their gear. Seeing what good shooters choose to use and understanding why can only help your shooting and understanding.

Im not trying to offer you pi** poor advice, im trying to help you understand the importance of a very cheap piece of gear. Which is prooving way harder than it should be.

Try to process this. The 1/4 moa adjustments in your scope are a very small angular increment on a very fine pitch screw. One click is somewhere in the neighborhood of .0002"-.0005" of a change on the erector tube (depending on the length of the tube). Now look at your scope are determine with its current height how much of an angle it would take to move your erector tube .0002"-.0005" in relation from your rifles bore. I promise your eye cannot discern the amount youve deduced.

When you go test your level you probably wont see much difference from normal shooting. Keep it on and keep using it and you will see your verticle is a little more consistent and wind calls are a little more predictable. Now when you miss you have a better chance of understanding and isolating the reason why. This is how this game works. Its small gains, a bunch of little variables. If you want to keep progressing, eliminating as many of those variables and learning to predict the ones that are left are the only way.

 

[jmitchell135]

The rifle can be canted to hell and back....as long as the scope is leveled from shot to shot!

That is a fact

 

[Michael Eichele]

I'm finding it hard to believe that this thread has generated so many pages and how much 'resistance' there is to using a level.

Here is a fact:

A simple formula for how much horizontal deviation you will see:

Sine of the degree of cant * drop at desired range from boreline. Drop from boreline is NOT corrected for your zero.

Based on 0' elevation, 29.92 in. Hg. 78% humidity, 3000'sec MV, BC of .5, scope height of 2". An example would be a drop of 328" at 1000 yards (corrected for a 300 yard zero is 257").

The sine of 6 degrees is .10453

Take .10453 * 328" and you have 34.28". This is how much horizontal displacement you will have at 1000 yards with a 6 degree cant.

Vertical deviation is:

(1- cosine of cant degrees) * drop at desired range from boreline.

(1-cosine 6) = .00548

.00548 * 328 = 1.8" impact low at 1000 yards.

I said a simple formula because the reality is its a bit more complicated but this is a VERY very close approximation.

Use a level, don't use a level. The choice is yours. I know I don't want to miss by nearly 3 feet at the buck of a lifetime so you will always find a level on my rifles.

M