Improving the 308 Win performance

[Mike D Texas]

Then why post it as a 308 in an improving the 308 thread? That's number 1....Number 2 is I own a modified 300 RUM to feed 4.00" cartridges...the 300 PRC can not reach the 3250 fps required... and I was at 3150 fps with the 300 RUM and 208 grs was maxed out. You might with a 30" to 32" barreled, throated 300 RUM, get the 3250 fps needed, to get those numbers claimed...if the numbers change, the cartridge changes, the claim charges...its false. The whole story is BS and outside the parameters of the discussion . If 195 gr fired at 3050 or 3100 fps from a PRC or RUM dropping it to most likely a 800 yd elk cartridge at best, no matter the case it was fired in. The parameters of 2000 fps and 1500 ft/lbs for adequate bullet performance only make an about 200 yd difference for most of the big magnums, if that.

If you can only hit 3150 with your fancy 300 RUM you aren't doing it right. I regularly hit 3200+ with 230 OTMs in a 300 Norma Improved with a 24.5" barrel

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Also the maker of the bullet would know better than as internet k ow it all how his bullets will perform at given velocities.

And finally have you ever shot his bullets? If not then you are just flapping your gums about something you know nothing about. Many of us have shot his bullets and do know how they perform. How often have you seen a 338 Norma Improved shoot a 275 grain bullet over 3100fps? This is with a 28" barrel with less than 120 shots on it.

I've done it with his bullets. Have you? I suspect not.

 

[44-40]

50 degrees during elk season is quite common at 8900' during September and October bull tags. I'm still trying to imagine shooting squirrels out of trees at 1000 yards. That's truly impressive!

Your all BS ..and no for someone who has limited information ..I shall inform you....the squirrels are on the ground...called ground squirrels....sage rats a larger ground squirrel prairie dogs even larger. I belonged to the Varmint Hunters Club for 15 yrs and 1000 yds squirrel kill is only slight above average skill...quite a few guys in the 1500 yd club, one at 2200 yds with a 308, and one at 3200 yds 338 Lapua...The 50BMG was employed for 16 second flight times and a forward observor...for serious squirrel and prairie dogs. I purchased a 50 BMG for ...squirrels. The Club ceased to exist as some laws were passed to stop the shooting in many areas, and endangered species act of the black tailed Prarie dog shut things down...and Indian Reservations stayed open but it was costly, had to have a full time guide. And ranchers went to pay fees and 22 LR on private land. There are a few holdouts in tbe mountains, but you really have to look to find them. National grasslands are available but shot out, and squirrels and rabbits have cycles in populations. Breaking news....LR shooting, hunting, sniping, is nothing new, it was done even in the blackpowder era with lesser equipment. So my modest accomplishment of killing squirrels at 1000 yds with a 308 is just that...a modest accomplishment. But then I shot 17,000 match rds during that time in the mountains with the same load throughout the barrels life, then change barrels. A man, deer, or elk would be an easy target at 1000yds when you shoot eggs, pop cans, squirrels, flowers, tuna cans, yogurt lids, and debris left on a log landing, by loggers who left that site for the next. I used 8" to 10" white circles as bullseyes at the 1000 to 1400yds as an expected to hit cold bore, or a pop can painted white was the target. 4" targets at 800 yds but try for 3 shot groups at 1400yds in 3 or 4 inches. All possible with a slightly better than average squirrel shooter..who used to practice alot.

 

[QuietTexan]

Of course Random Guy #47 can shoot world-record sized heavy gun groups with a 308 Win

 

[JAYgs8163]

Your all BS ..and no for someone who has limited information ..I shall inform you....the squirrels are on the ground...called ground squirrels....sage rats a larger ground squirrel prairie dogs even larger. I belonged to the Varmint Hunters Club for 15 yrs and 1000 yds squirrel kill is only slight above average skill...quite a few guys in the 1500 yd club, one at 2200 yds with a 308, and one at 3200 yds 338 Lapua...The 50BMG was employed for 16 second flight times and a forward observor...for serious squirrel and prairie dogs. I purchased a 50 BMG for ...squirrels. The Club ceased to exist as some laws were passed to stop the shooting in many areas, and endangered species act of the black tailed Prarie dog shut things down...and Indian Reservations stayed open but it was costly, had to have a full time guide. And ranchers went to pay fees and 22 LR on private land. There are a few holdouts in tbe mountains, but you really have to look to find them. National grasslands are available but shot out, and squirrels and rabbits have cycles in populations. Breaking news....LR shooting, hunting, sniping, is nothing new, it was done even in the blackpowder era with lesser equipment. So my modest accomplishment of killing squirrels at 1000 yds with a 308 is just that...a modest accomplishment. But then I shot 17,000 match rds during that time in the mountains with the same load throughout the barrels life, then change barrels. A man, deer, or elk would be an easy target at 1000yds when you shoot eggs, pop cans, squirrels, flowers, tuna cans, yogurt lids, and debris left on a log landing, by loggers who left that site for the next. I used 8" to 10" white circles as bullseyes at the 1000 to 1400yds as an expected to hit cold bore, or a pop can painted white was the target. 4" targets at 800 yds but try for 3 shot groups at 1400yds in 3 or 4 inches. All possible with a slightly better than average squirrel shooter..who used to practice a lot.

It's still 50 degrees in many places during Elk season at 9-10k elevation.

Oh yeah, how were you ranging such a small target at 2200 and 3200 yards back then, or even seeing it. Must have been some impressive glass.

I'm not the spouting off. Just asking questions.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I'm done. Get the thread back on track. Totally derailed.

 

[44-40]

If you can only hit 3150 with your fancy 300 RUM you aren't doing it right. I regularly hit 3200+ with 230 OTMs in a 300 Norma Improved with a 24.5" barrelView attachment 489403View attachment 489404 .
Also the maker of the bullet would know better than as internet k ow it all how his bullets will perform at given velocities.

And finally have you ever shot his bullets? If not then you are just flapping your gums about something you know nothing about. Many of us have shot his bullets and do know how they perform. How often have you seen a 338 Norma Improved shoot a 275 grain bullet over 3100fps? This is with a 28" barrel with less than 120 shots on it.

I've done it with his bullets. Have you? I suspect not.

View attachment 489405

I only tried one powder RL 25 on the 208 eldm it was 3150 fps...I was concentrated on the 250 ATIPS hence the 4.00 in cartridges at 2985 fps from a 26" barrel and purchased a 30" 8 twist for it but chambered it in 308 Win long action which turned out to be an excellent shooter. No further explanation consudered or needed, for those it applies to.
So you fools inject your magnum calibers in a "308 improvement" discussion...And expect me to be impressed? ...how typical, delusional, egotistical, and self serving.
Then you whine about the 6.5 guys and their insanity...when you are the same delusional boat. Few decent discussions can be had with delusional selfish minds injecting themselves, off topic, demanding mine is better, with childish ranting behavior...but you're on the wrong subject! 308 Win?
When nothing you have accomplished is special, in anyway, many before you, have already surpassed everything you will attempt to accomplish in your pathetic self centered life times. Just the facts...

 

[JAYgs8163]

I only tried one powder RL 25 on the 208 eldm it was 3150 fps...I was concentrated on the 250 ATIPS hence the 4.00 in cartridges at 2985 fps from a 26" barrel and purchased a 30" 8 twist for it but chambered it in 308 Win long action which turned out to be an excellent shooter. No further explanation consudered or needed, for those it applies to.
So you fools inject your magnum calibers in a "308 improvement" discussion...And expect me to be impressed? ...how typical, delusional, egotistical, and self serving.
Then you whine about the 6.5 guys and their insanity...when you are the same delusional boat. Few decent discussions can be had with delusional selfish minds injecting themselves, off topic, demanding mine is better, with childish ranting behavior...but you're on the wrong subject! 308 Win?
When nothing you have accomplished is special, in anyway, many before you, have already surpassed everything you will attempt to accomplish in your pathetic self centered life times. Just the facts...

Wow! Powerful stuff man. I'm sorry your such a angry person. Have a good rest of you evening!

 

[nralifer]

Thanks! I bought a few pounds of LeverEvolution to try based on your results and those of others.

I can't complain about Varget in my 16" barrel but LeverEvolution seems like a considerable step up in velocity.

Are you aware of any pressure data for the .308 Win and LeverEvolution?

There is data in the Hodgdon Annual Manual for the 338 Fed and 30-30 Win but not the 308Win. It has a burn speed a bit slower than CFE 223 so you can use CFE223 data for any given weight bullet as a starter load for the 308Win. Varget is also an excellent powder. Very temp stable.

 

[44-40]

It's still 50 degrees in many places during Elk season at 9-10k elevation.

Oh yeah, how were you ranging such a small target at 2200 and 3200 yards back then, or even seeing it. Must have been some impressive glass.

I'm not the spouting off. Just asking questions.

Keep typing , you are getting less intelligent with every statement. And totally full of BS....you want to know ...look it up. They had excellent glass back then, lazer range finders, were new...
But US Navy range finders, Barr& Stroud and binoculars were available. Range ships 20 miles and looking for torpedos in the water... excellent glass. Lots of famous riflesmiths and barrel makers, were involved. 338 /416 Rigby before the 338 Lapua for squirrels past 850 yds Bat Machine co, and Dan Lilja, Lilja barrels after elk at 2500 yds his custom 50BMG it must have weighed 60 plus pounds. It was cold lots of snow on the ground watching a park freezing his *** off, during bull elk season.
And of coarese you are spouting off ...cause that's what BS ers do when caught in a pile of their own BS.

 

[JAYgs8163]

I asked you a question and would've just liked a answer. What BS did I ever post? I never posted anything you're referring to.

 

[nralifer]

All these bullets have a 3000 fps muzzle velocity. Impacted at 950 and 1000 yds. None expanded.
The first two are Nosler BT one of the most explosive bullets up close but at 950 yds one tip broke off and the plastic tip still intact on the other...known as bullet failure in the hunting community. But they explode inside the 100 to 300 yd range, with a 3000 fps muzzle velocity. Just, The facts, and testing must be done if one is to extend the range of his 308 to see where bullet failure begins,... 450?, 500? And where it's inconsistent. Hunting and sniping are two different endeavors.

Here are the results of a gel test I did on the 308SBD2 150 gr in March 2020. Bullets were recovered from 10% clear gel. The ogive, tip, and hollow point designs are the same as the 195 gr 308SBD2 bullet. The MV is shown for each shot done in 1:9 twist barrel shot 10 ft away from the gel. CLEARLY THEY EXPAND WELL. Much much better than those Accubonds you showed which did not expand at all. In case you are wondering the effective range is whatever distance, given the BC of the bullet, atmospheric conditions allow the bullet to reach 1700 fps.

 

[44-40]

1400 yds 308 Win 4 shots on rock...notice the top left bullet stuck in rock and the steep angle of decent. Years before the longest shot with a 308 Win sniper rifle in Iraq at 1400 yds. It has little power for the likes of elk. But will kill a human. The steep angle of decent has to be taken into account your kill zone becomes smaller as a high hit vitals is required to kill as the bullet travels downward in the chest exiting low. So you could only get one lung on an elk on a low heart shot scenario, as the bullet exits the bottom of the chest cavity. The 308 Win is effective against humans at 1400 yds with 155 Lapua Scenars, Varget, Lapua cases. 210 match primers. Yep 17,000 rds if that because it worked. I have moved from that component makeup to 200 SMK to bring more energy to bare. But still have the rifle and one of its many barrels ready to go.
It's hard to inform those who know it all, cause the have the best equipment but little practice. That is from 2003, 308 Win fist size groups usually 3 this is 4 at 1400yds...and cold bore 1st shot hit on a pop can at 1400 yds ..once, lucky shot. So shooting a large target at 1200 yds is not at all impressive to me. You can do the same if taught, and practice like you want a gold medal, set up your rifle an components...no benches prone. Learn to make a killing shot quickly, as soon as the target is exposed, and drop a follow up if necessary with in 5 seconds of the first, accurately at 1000 to 1400yds. 2 oz trigger we aren't screwing around. There is a reason for everything, and why I have so many 308s.
But most shoot their mouth instead of their LR rifle. Believing in things that do not matter. If you can not do that at 1400 yds with your 308 you are not practicing or practicing wrong. As I'm only slight above average in the club and falling off each yr, as time passes by.

 

[nralifer]

So it's not a 308 a winchester as I had suspected. And it still doesn't fit the prameters of discussion with 2000 fps and 1500 ft lbs.
Not impressed with the BS of pulling down a ballistics chart to fit a narrative. I like the 8900 ft elevation, but 50° during elk season at 8900 ft is BS, but it doesn't compute at 15 or zero degrees. The other guy always does the computations, maybe even the load development, so the shooter knows nothing. Than Krestrel, and a few other words to try to impress... but it is all BS.
There is no individual confidence with this shooter. What is your rifle and load number? Wind velocity? Wind angle? Average wind velocity?
What is the load data? And what are the S/D?
The bullet did not really expand...so there is that...totally unimpressive try. Sell the BS to someone else.

I never said that 1225 shot was from a 308 Win, but it may be possible. Clearly the Accubonds you showed would have failed miserably. Clearly the data runs counter to your conjectures, (6based on no real data) that copper bullets can't expand at low speed. When they are made out of the right alloy and have the proper internal design of the hollow point, the definitely do expand well and reliably. By the way, it is possible to get 3200 fps with the 150 gr bullet from a 308Win from a 24" 1:9 twist barrel using around 52-53gr LVR (see photo of test) and the photo of the JBM Ballistics calculation shows the speed and energy of that bullet under the conditions of the hunt in question. At 1225 yds under the conditions of the hunt in question even the 150 gr 308BD2 bullet still retains 997ft-lbs and 1730 fps, sufficient for expansion.
As far as your disbelief of the hunt temps, that's your problem. You weren't there and you are disputing the guy that was.

 

[44-40]

I never said that 1225 shot was from a 308 Win, but it may be possible. Clearly the Accubonds you showed would have failed miserably. Clearly the data runs counter to your conjectures, (6based on no real data) that copper bullets can't expand at low speed. When they are made out of the right alloy and have the proper internal design of the hollow point, the definitely do expand well and reliably. By the way, it is possible to get 3200 fps with the 150 gr bullet from a 308Win from a 24" 1:9 twist barrel using around 52-53gr LVR (see photo of test) and the photo of the JBM Ballistics calculation shows the speed and energy of that bullet under the conditions of the hunt in question. At 1225 yds under the conditions of the hunt in question even the 150 gr 308BD2 bullet still retains 997ft-lbs and 1730 fps, sufficient for expansion.
As far as your disbelief of the hunt temps, that's your problem. You weren't there and you are disputing the guy that was.

Your really concerned about the temperature, and you should be ... that BS alone proves everything you said is BS. It just shows it was about 85° downtown on bull elk hunting day in November...not likely. There is an altitude app for that. Would you believe...lol. You can always spot BSer.
It's wasn't a 308 ...of coarse, it wasn't! ... As I predicted. So why make a comment on a thread called "Improving the 308" with respect to the criteria provided that it must be 2000 fps and 1500 ft-lb of energy on impact, to be a viable bullet for the task.
Then you respond with data outside the criteria laid down...I was referring to the 195 gr bullet that was first stated, and supposedly used in the initial response...not the 150 gr, you're now suggesting for 3250 to 3300 fps, in the 308,.. not the magnum, and not the 195 gr. The 49.5 was the 308 original charge with the 150 gr and now its more powder and I ran the 49.5 gr load it was 2964 fps with a 150 gold dot Bartlein 9 twist 22". The Powder had erratic velocities of 33 fps difference in just 3 shots of the same weighed powder charge several times until 51.1 grains the velocity went backwards to the 50.4 gr load around 3015 fps. Your data shows a backward trend in velocity also on the last load. And I did not reach the velocities written down as I stopped when the velocity went down with a higher charge. These are not long range loads by any stretch of the imagination. You need tight velocity spreads or the vertical will miss an entire elk, with Leverevolution in my tests,... so I gave up on it. 2000MR was faster and more consistent in my tests. Everything has changed in the statements nothing appears as orginially stated, the gun, the caliber, the velocity, the charge weights, the criteria for bullet energy and velocity.
Makes for a difficult and informative discussion stearing the conversation into a train wreck of BS I laid down the facts you laid down the BS with an agenda ... the next statement would be like, "Would you believe 1250 yds with a slingshot?"
85 ° in November? ...Get Smart. Lol...the Nazi pilots use to fly the fighters to 10,000 ft in N Africa in WW 2 to freeze the American soft drinks for an ice cold drink, in the African desert heat.
You Lost all credibility...like fake news.