Improving the 308 Win performance

[Rflshootr]

We would to but the fact is we have none just pics of the animal. The pic below shows three consecutive 10% gel impacts averaging 1701 fps the slowest was 1679 fps

Maybe it's me, but I don't remember a 308 Win case looking anything like that. Maybe it's because I'm old and my memory is fading. And the bullets in proportion, sort of look like 7mm or .277. But like I said, it's probably just me.

 

[Wachsmann]

I think one of the big things I see from this conversation is let's put the best of the best a 308 can do and put mediocre for an 06. Not comparing apples to apples. More like apples to pairs. Just not sure the same comparison. But… I have been trying to do just what the original posts has been stated. I have been trying to get the heaviest bullet I can shoot out of a standard mag length 308 and see how fast I can get it going for the exact same reason. Shoot large game at long range than what thought of with still acceptable accuracy, enough velocity and energy. I set the goal at 1000 yards for deer and 800 to 900 for elk. I have not been able to get these things to come together for a good consistent load. I been trying 212ELDX and CF223, varget, imr4895, and something I'm leaving out powder wise. But fastest was like 2520 compressed load and some pressure signs. Temps went up and really quick I got hard bolt lift. Also this is a 1/10 twist 26inch barrel. Personally I wish I would have gotten the 06 to do this with. The extra case capacity would make this a little more practical.

 

[Wachsmann]

On the CF223, it does shoot dirty, even though it's supposed to have copper fouler erasers in it. Also it's is not a temp stable powder. I got big swings in testing this last summer. Had to shoot right when the sun was just peaking up. By 8.00am I was getting sticky bolt lift. Just beware.

 

[nralifer]

Maybe it's me, but I don't remember a 308 Win case looking anything like that. Maybe it's because I'm old and my memory is fading. And the bullets in proportion, sort of look like 7mm or .277. But like I said, it's probably just me.

The case is a 7 mm Sherman Short and the bullet is our 160 gr .284 SBD2. All the Bulldozer hunting bullets have the same hollow point configuration. The pics show 2 .308 BD2's expansion after hitting the 10% gel at just below 1700 fps with the new hollow point. The pic with the white background is our 150 gr .308 BD2 having impacted the 10% gel at various speeds. Notice there is still expansion well below 1700, but it is mediocre. We advise not to take shots where the impact velocity is expected to be below 1700 fps. In the real world, the BC of those bullets is high enough that at an MV=2900-3000 the distance where the bullet is expected to slow to around 1700 is usually 900-1200 yds depending on altitude and barometric pressure. The point of all this is that the effective envelope of our hunting bullets is so broad that all one has to do is point and shoot. If placement is good then the animal will die quickly an painlessly. Better than freezing or starving to death or falling victim to a pack of Coyotes or Wolves and being eaten half alive which is the more "natural" way of death in the wild.

 

[nralifer]

If you put that bullet in a 06 , it will out preform your 308. You can put more powder in the 06 case = more velocity longer range

Maybe, maybe not. I want to remind you that point of the thread is TO SHARE WAYS THAT PERFORMANCE OF THE .308CAN BE IMPROVED WITHOUT WILDCATTING THE CARTRIDGE. The principles to effect these improvements can then be applied to other cartridges including the 30'06. The thread is not a discussion of what's "better" than something else, but rather a demonstration by knowledgeable reloaders on how guys can improve the guns they already have. Bullets, primers, powders, throat designs, action length, etc. all play a role.

 

[nralifer]

On the CF223, it does shoot dirty, even though it's supposed to have copper fouler erasers in it. Also it's is not a temp stable powder. I got big swings in testing this last summer. Had to shoot right when the sun was just peaking up. By 8.00am I was getting sticky bolt lift. Just beware.

I noticed that with a CFE223 load that initially shot well. With repeated shooting I began to notice that bolt closure was progressively more difficult. After cleaning the gun things got better. This happened with less than 20 shots. Went to LVR and never had that problem again even after 75+ consecutive shots.

 

[nralifer]

Just a quick point. The '06 and 308 are rather similar cartridges. The main difference is case capacity. The '06 has approximately 150 fps advantage when variables are equal.
For full disclosure, I love the 308 and don't much care for the '06. The 308 is an honest 450 yard elk gun. If you need more distance, grab a 30 cal magnum. A 300wm w/215 berger will do what you want.
The more animals that I shoot or see get shot, the more I realize that ballistics and terminal ballistics are friends, but not twins.

To answer your first question regarding how to innovate or get the most out of a 308..... you do that by getting a 300WM/rum/nosler.

 

[BillLarson]

Maybe it's me, but I don't remember a 308 Win case looking anything like that. Maybe it's because I'm old and my memory is fading. And the bullets in proportion, sort of look like 7mm or .277. But like I said, it's probably just me.

Here are some old old ....
winchester"silver tips"....I paid 12.90$ for 100 of these beauties.....

 

[nralifer]

By the same line of thinking you improve on the 300WM by going to a 300 PRC, then a 300 Norma, then a 300 Norma AI then necking down a 338 Lapua, then AI improving that, then trying necking down a 33XC.

 

[LDHunter]

I LOVE my 308 rifles but for elk beyond 300yds not so much. That's why I have a 7mmSAUM and a 300SAUM. I also have a 375H&H for when negotiations fail and the SHTF in big game. The bigger the game the more important anchoring them with one shot becomes especially at long range. I worked for an outfitter and guide for awhile in Colorado and retrieving wounded elk from impossibly thick stuff in deep ravines got old pretty quick.

We can argue the merits of 308 vs 30-06 forever and nothing will come of it. Sure the 30-06 can pack more powder but it's a long action cartridge and a true hunting rifle in 308 or 30-06 will almost always have a barrel shorter than 24" and they perform admirably with those barrels which are usually between 20" and 22". Lighter and shorter is better and handier in these rifles. If I am going to lug a heavier long action rifle with a longer barrel it just makes sense to then use a "magnum".

If you want a longer barrel then it makes sense to use a "magnum" cartridge that will appreciate that extra length and give you corresponding performance increases for that extra length meaning 24" to 26". Only the "super magnums" actually need 28" or longer barrels to achieve their true potential.

Then, of course, if your funds are limited you could just buy an inexpensive rifle chambered in 300 Win Mag and some factory ammo and kill every edible game animal in North America with reasonable bullet placement but where's the fun in that? LOL

 

[nralifer]

I LOVE my 308 rifles but for elk beyond 300yds not so much. That's why I have a 7mmSAUM and a 300SAUM. I also have a 375H&H for when negotiations fail and the SHTF in big game. The bigger the game the more important anchoring them with one shot becomes especially at long range. I worked for an outfitter and guide for awhile in Colorado and retrieving wounded elk from impossibly thick stuff in deep ravines got old pretty quick.

We can argue the merits of 308 vs 30-06 forever and nothing will come of it. Sure the 30-06 can pack more powder but it's a long action cartridge and a true hunting rifle in 308 or 30-06 will almost always have a barrel shorter than 24" and they perform admirably with those barrels which are usually between 20" and 22". Lighter and shorter is better and handier in these rifles. If I am going to lug a heavier long action rifle with a longer barrel it just makes sense to then use a "magnum".

If you want a longer barrel then it makes sense to use a "magnum" cartridge that will appreciate that extra length and give you corresponding performance increases for that extra length meaning 24" to 26". Only the "super magnums" actually need 28" or longer barrels to achieve their true potential.

Then, of course, if your funds are limited you could just buy an inexpensive rifle chambered in 300 Win Mag and some factory ammo and kill every edible game animal in North America with reasonable bullet placement but where's the fun in that? LOL

 

[VLD Pilot]

Just something to think about:
No matter what the cartridge is, a 150gr .30 caliber bullet with a g1 BC of .6 going 2900-3000+ fps still shows decent numbers out to some very long ranges. That is whether it's a specially built .308 to ring everything you can from the cartridge or a standard hunting rifle in .300 WinMag with factory ammo. Looking at your current load(s); if you extend the barrel of your .308 from 24" to 30" and got the same 32.5 fps gain per inch of your other 2 rifles (1 with 20" barrel @ 2920fps to 1 with 24" @ 3050 fps) then you would end up at .300 WinMag velocities with that 150gr bullet. Would anyone doubt a .300 WinMag with the same numbers is a capable 900 yard elk rifle? Yes and no, the numbers don't lie but there are always gonna folks that say you shouldn't shoot big game at that range no matter what you are shooting. At the altitude I'm used to hunting elk it would be adequate. Not exactly my choice, but with adequate numbers/potential. Some on this site set one of the parameters for the max effective range on game for a rifle/load as the distance the bullet reaches its minimum velocity for reliable expansion/performance.

I'd love to see a .6 BC .308 bullet that weighs 150 grains. Usually a .6 BC .308 bullet starts around 200+ grains

 

[nralifer]

I may be wrong, but sounds like you were dealing with a bunch of hunters using mostly lead core jacketed bullets. Back in the day there was not a multi-animal hunt I went on either by myself or with friends that at least once there was not an issue with some performance failure of those types of bullets. I personally hit a Caribou with a 210 gr 338 Scirocco in the shoulder and had to shoot it a second time to put it down because the bullet failed to penetrate fully. Only a 250 yd shot. In Africa we had to chase a Black Wildebeest a full mile in a truck before he went down and it had to be shot a second time. Bullet was a Sierra 180 gr GMK that hit in the mid lung at 360 yds, penetrated through the other lung, expanded fully but to such a size that it left a silver dollar sized hole on the opposite side preventing a tension pneumothorax from developing and killing the animal quickly. Had to shoot it again to put it down! The next day I shot a bigger Blue Wildebeest with the same gun and bullet where the bullet passed through but did not apparently expand well creating a small self sealing exit hole. The animal ran in circles for about 8 seconds and collapsed dead. Just looking at it, its chest was huge and tense obviously dying from a tension pneumothorax. Overall very erratic bullet behavior with two dramatically different outcomes. Fast forward about 13 years where we are now making copper lathe turned bullets. We are on an African Plains Game hunt where we shot 7 animals in 7 shots, all dead within 20 yds or DRT, all with complete penetration, including a Bush Pig whose bullet went completely through head to butt. Gun used on that trip was a 20" 308Win using a first generation 150 gr BD bullet. Since then we have shot about 7 Prong Horns, two Alaskan Coastal Black Bears with second generation Bulldozer bullets, .243 and .308 calibers, same one shot kills, no tracking and complete pass through. Performance of these bullets surprised us at the beginning, but it is so consistent, even with in our own customer testimonials on even larger animals at distances ranging from 35 out to 1500 yds. The story is the same. Rapid pass through kill, less meat damage and sub-MOA accuracy during load development. We have heard of several Texas heart shots on Moose and Elk where the bullets used were not recovered. DRT results. To me the first step in improving the 308 Win performance is to use tougher, reliably expanding, high BC copper bullets which in my personal experience out perform a 300 WSM using heavier lead core bullets.

 

[nralifer]

I'd love to see a .6 BC .308 bullet that weighs 150 grains. Usually a .6 BC .308 bullet starts around 200+ grains

In .308 caliber we make the 175 gr BD2 th a .60 G1BC, and a 195 gr BD2 bullet with a G1BC of 0.67.