Improving the 308 Win performance

[xsn10s]

One of my Fuddery 3-O-Wait's
Since you were not pleased with 30 inch 308 Winchester's, here's my sub 16 inch.
Last spring while I was doing drop confirmations. The steel on the left is 10 inch, and yes that's my first shot at 500 yards.
Impact velocity is 1764 ft./s at 500 yards. That makes this little, specialty pistol (Remington XP-100) capable to kill cleanly with the bullet I am using just shy of 500 yards. Not bad for a 3-O-Late

View attachment 458722
Dan was doing some load development, getting ready for the Southwest nationals a few years ago. Sebastian was going to be shooting and we were changing bullets. This is a five shot group at 600 yards. Those are 1 inch squares. On one of the shots, Dan called that he made a bad touch on the trigger at the shot.
View attachment 458726
This is what foolhardy fuddery looks like at 600 yards. Four shots right at an inch at 600 yards, then the pulled shot, still makes it a fairly decent group. Add to that, it was 14° below zero not counting the windchill when he was doing this, so this is what foolhardy fuddery looks like at 600 yards. Four shots right at an inch at 600 yards, then with the pulled shot, still makes it a fairly decent group. Add to that, it was 14° below zero not counting the windchill, when he was doing this, so I might be willing to give Dan a break for not having a perfect trigger squeeze each time.
Dan even dressed up for the occasion

LOL looks like someone talked stuff to the wrong person LOL!

 

[Hand Skills]

Fudd must be a four letter word

 

[QuietTexan]

LOL looks like someone talked stuff to the wrong person LOL!

Mess around and meet Ernie

He will make you question why you need anything more than a pistol and a can-do attitude!

 

[greenejc]

Maybe you should do the math. The G1BC of the 150 gr .308 BD2 bullet is 0.515. At 3050 fps, which I get all the time from my 24" 1:9 Bartlein using a SAAMI 308 chamber loaded to 2.980" to mag feed at 5000 ft elevation which is where a lot of Elk hunting is done, at 59degreesF 50% humidity and 1 ATM corrected to that altitude the bullet at 900 yds is going over 1800 fps and has 1080 ft# energy. The bullet expands at 1700 fps impact. A 150 gr copper Etip in a 3006 per listed data in the 2021 Hodgdon Annual Manual from a 24" barrel has a max listed MV of 2947 fps. The BC of that bullet is listed at G1=0.469 (see Noslers pic below). I did not propose this thread to argue the point of whether the 308Win is better or worse than anything else. I apologize if you are getting that impression. The purpose of the thread is to stimulate discussion on what modern components can improve the performance of the 308 Win with the idea that concepts developed along similar lines could do the same for other cartridges. In my mind there are quite a few things that can be done beyond just using a higher energy powder. I would like to see what other guys have done along those lines.

I've done the math numerous times. I've also reviewed the loading manuals. The .308 has exactly one load in the Hodgdon web site that will push a 150 grain bullet past 3,000fps safely. The Speer manual has one load that will push the 150 grain bullet past 3,000fps safely. The 30-06 has 16+ loads that will push the 150 grain bullet past 3,000fps, and at least 6 loads that will go past 3100fps. The 30-06 also has several loads in the Hodgden manual that will push a 165 grain bullet past 2900fps, several of which will go past 2950fps, and one of which breaks 3,000fps, while the Speer manual has four loads that exceed 2900fps, one of which lists at 2970+. The Speer manual shows two loads that get into mid 2800's for the .308, and the Hodgden manual shows four loads that break 2800fps with a 165 grain bullet. There are 12 loads for the 180 grain 30-06 in the Hodgden manual that exceed 2800fps, most in the mid-2800's. The Speer manual lists a number of 180 grain loads for the 30-06 that are in the high 2700's, above 2750fps. The Hodgden manual shows exactly one load for the .308 that breaks 2700fps. The Speer manual shows one load that puts the .308 at around 2690fps with a 180 grain bullet. These are loads that are at or near max pressures for the 308 and the -06, but the -06 has at least a 150fps advantage in every bullet weight. The -06 just out classes the .308 in every bullet weight. As to the altitudes that most of us hunt elk in Colorado, its generally above 8,000 feet. I live 20 miles from the base of Pikes peak and my house is on the plains. The elevation at my front porch is over 7,000 feet. Having said all this, the .308 is a great round, and will deliver a 180 grain bullet from a 24" barrel with enough velocity and impact to kill an elk at 4 to 500 yards cleanly. It is highly accurate, and more than adequate. I like the heavier bullets in both the -06 and the .308 though because of penetration. The more mass a bullet has the better it will penetrate. That's why my go to rifle for elk is a .35 Whelen using a 225 grain or a 250 grain bullet.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

I didn't check Hodgdon or Speer, but I believe they will have multiple RUM loads with 150s way above what a 308 Win is capable of...blah, blah, blah...30LATE, 30WAIT, 3SLOW8, blah, blah....We are talking about the 308 WINCHESTER people. Contribute with 308 WINCHESTER info or just hit ignore...This thread is about the 308 WINCHESTER.

 

[nralifer]

I've done the math numerous times. I've also reviewed the loading manuals. The .308 has exactly one load in the Hodgdon web site that will push a 150 grain bullet past 3,000fps safely. The Speer manual has one load that will push the 150 grain bullet past 3,000fps safely. The 30-06 has 16+ loads that will push the 150 grain bullet past 3,000fps, and at least 6 loads that will go past 3100fps. The 30-06 also has several loads in the Hodgden manual that will push a 165 grain bullet past 2900fps, several of which will go past 2950fps, and one of which breaks 3,000fps, while the Speer manual has four loads that exceed 2900fps, one of which lists at 2970+. The Speer manual shows two loads that get into mid 2800's for the .308, and the Hodgden manual shows four loads that break 2800fps with a 165 grain bullet. There are 12 loads for the 180 grain 30-06 in the Hodgden manual that exceed 2800fps, most in the mid-2800's. The Speer manual lists a number of 180 grain loads for the 30-06 that are in the high 2700's, above 2750fps. The Hodgden manual shows exactly one load for the .308 that breaks 2700fps. The Speer manual shows one load that puts the .308 at around 2690fps with a 180 grain bullet. These are loads that are at or near max pressures for the 308 and the -06, but the -06 has at least a 150fps advantage in every bullet weight. The -06 just out classes the .308 in every bullet weight. As to the altitudes that most of us hunt elk in Colorado, its generally above 8,000 feet. I live 20 miles from the base of Pikes peak and my house is on the plains. The elevation at my front porch is over 7,000 feet. Having said all this, the .308 is a great round, and will deliver a 180 grain bullet from a 24" barrel with enough velocity and impact to kill an elk at 4 to 500 yards cleanly. It is highly accurate, and more than adequate. I like the heavier bullets in both the -06 and the .308 though because of penetration. The more mass a bullet has the better it will penetrate. That's why my go to rifle for elk is a .35 Whelen using a 225 grain or a 250 grain bullet.
[/QUOTE
In any of those manuals you mentioned, is there data for Leverevolution 49.5-50 gr in a 1:10 twist 20-26" barrel? That is what I use to safely obtain 3000 + fps using the 150BD2 from a 308 Win in barrels ranging in length from 20-26" which by the way penetrated 32" through the chest of an Alaskan Coastal Black Bear at a 25 degree quartering away shot. The penetration of the BD2 bullet is greater grain for grain than even 180 gr lead core bullets, and the BC of the 150 gr BD2 is also greater than that of the 180 gr Sierra Game King in 30 cal. There likely LVR data for the 338 Fed for LVR in the Hodgdon Annual Manual. Also using Lapua Palma brass with CCI450 primers allows for more speed using LVR and the 150 gr BD2 bullet in a 308Win.

 

[DoneNOut]

I didn't check Hodgdon or Speer, but I believe they will have multiple RUM loads with 150s way above what a 308 Win is capable of...blah, blah, blah...30LATE, 30WAIT, 3SLOW8, blah, blah....We are talking about the 308 WINCHESTER people. Contribute with 308 WINCHESTER info or just hit ignore...This thread is about the 308 WINCHESTER.

Can I call it the 308 Winchestershire?
So, I might have missed this in the thread, but there is the possibility of using the Lapua Scenar-L 155gr and push it as hard as possible. 26" barrel. It's what the Palma and FTR dudes do. I think 600 would be the max effective killing distance.

 

[nralifer]

Can I call it the 308 Winchestershire?
So, I might have missed this in the thread, but there is the possibility of using the Lapua Scenar-L 155gr and push it as hard as possible. 26" barrel. It's what the Palma and FTR dudes do. I think 600 would be the max effective killing distance.

Maybe, but we have killed Blue Wildebeest at 500 yds with DRT results with complete pass through with a wound channel the size of my fist.

 

[Ernie]

I have been using for years the 150 BD and BD2 bullets with MVs of 2920 from a 20"barrel and 3050 from a 24" barrel using Leverevolution which outperforms most 3006 loads. Have killed African Plains Game and a large Alaskan Coastal Black Bear all with single shot DRT kills.

I understand how some of the mono's can be driven faster
The 150 grain BD and BD2 will both stabilize in a 10T.
Will it stabilize in a 11T?
With a 15.75" barrel would you still recommend the Leverevolution powder?
Do you have any data for 16" barrels?
I have typically used the 155 A-Max and the 168 A-Max in 14", 14.5", and 15.75" 308's for antelope, deer, and hogs with great success.

 

[bamban]

Can I call it the 308 Winchestershire?
So, I might have missed this in the thread, but there is the possibility of using the Lapua Scenar-L 155gr and push it as hard as possible. 26" barrel. It's what the Palma and FTR dudes do. I think 600 would be the max effective killing distance.

You may hit pressure ceiling quicker with Scenar, bearing surface is fairly long.

 

[DoneNOut]

You may hit pressure ceiling quicker with Scenar, bearing surface is fairly long.

Oh ok. What bullet would be the fastest out of the 308 WIN and still reuse the brass?

 

[xsn10s]

Oh ok. What bullet would be the fastest out of the 308 WIN and still reuse the brass?

My understand was Berger Hybrids generally had the lowest bearing surface. But take a look at Nosler's 165-168 load data Brad. Big Game pushing their bullet 2900 fps.

 

[DoneNOut]

My understand was Berger Hybrids generally had the lowest bearing surface. But take a look at Nosler's 165-168 load data Brad. Big Game pushing their bullet 2900 fps.

OK, I got some 155.5 FB I can try to hotrod a bit. TAC, IMR 3031, N135? Lever and CFE223 too. I heard a rumor CFE223 and Lever are the same powder.

 

[xsn10s]

OK, I got some 155.5 FB I can try to hotrod a bit. TAC, IMR 3031, N135?

I haven't played with IMR 3031 or N135 in a 308 win so I'd probably steal some TAC from my fertilizer stash