Improving the 308 Win performance

[G19Jeeper]

This thread would be dedicated to ways to improve the performance of the 308 Win or the 7.62x51 mm cartridge without wildcatting the case. Experienced and innovative reloaders should find this interesting and are encouraged to participate. The 308Win is so versatile, inherently accurate and commonly used, and yet its performance in terms of MV, trajectory and speed is a bit mediocre. I am sure it can out perform the 3006. To start with I offer up my favorite hunting load I have used for the past 6/7 years in the 308Win. The 150 gr BD or BD2 with 49 gr of Leverevolution going 2920 fps from a 1:10, 20"Douglas barrel in a short action rifle. The same load from a 24" Bartlein 1:9 twist barrel goes 3050 fps. This load would be a pretty decent long range Elk load to 900 yds or so.

I find the best way to squeeze 30-06 performance out of a .308 rifle is to sell it and buy a .300 Whatever-You-Want. Teasing aside, the energy threshold of the .308 at those kind of ranges is mediocre at best. I would not be betting my elk hunt on one. I limited my shots on whitetail to 400 yards with one here in PA. It starts dropping like a stone much past that. I dont know offhand where it crosses the supersonic to subsonic barrier but I am positive it is shorter than 900 yards. Lot of drag on a .30 cal bullet when you're only pushing it from a .308 case.

 

[DoneNOut]

You can run a Berger 200-20x at 2650fps out of a 308w and get basically the same results.

Case capacity wins when you compare 30-06/308.

Can I have that recipe? I can get a 200.20X going 2650 in a 30" barrel.

 

[DoneNOut]

The OP manufactures/sells long range bullets?

I'm totally willing to try working up loads for .308, I'll provide the powder and other components if he's willing to send me a few hundred bullets (to start, might need more if he really needs to hit that 2900 fps with a 178gr).

Got my own range, several .308 rifles and some spare time until Spring. Been reloading since 1980.

View attachment 422090

Somebody send this dude some bullets!

 

[nralifer]

I find the best way to squeeze 30-06 performance out of a .308 rifle is to sell it and buy a .300 Whatever-You-Want. Teasing aside, the energy threshold of the .308 at those kind of ranges is mediocre at best. I would not be betting my elk hunt on one. I limited my shots on whitetail to 400 yards with one here in PA. It starts dropping like a stone much past that. I dont know offhand where it crosses the supersonic to subsonic barrier but I am positive it is shorter than 900 yards. Lot of drag on a .30 cal bullet when you're only pushing it from a .308 case.

First of all you don't need a 30-6 rifle to get the 308Win outperforming standard 30-06 loads. I know this for a fact if you use the right components. Second point is that the drag of a given bullet has absolutely nothing to do with the case it is shot from. If I wanted to outperform any case I'll use my 50BMG shooting our 850 gr BR with a G7 BC of 0.623. That's right a G7. But that is totally irrelevant to the point of the thread.

 

[nralifer]

Somebody send this dude some bullets!

When I finish the gel tests and get a good idea of how the hollow point performs I'll post the results here and then put them on the web site. The photo shows the bullet. G7=0.216

 

[Ernie]

I find that .3sl0w8 fans tend to be the most arrogant of all chamberings (even Creed guys!), despite the fact that it's really just a neutered .30-06 that was built to reduce recoil and fill a need for semi-auto and full auto fire- not designed for accurate long range shooting… so I'm guilty of taking some pleasure in jeering them a bit more than I probably should.

John,
I shoot a 308 Win some, and I like 3-O-Wait
Regardless of what it was originally built for or originally designed for, it is extremely accurate at 1000 yards.
When you add in the changing conditions at a grand is it going to keep up with the 284 Winchester, 284 Shehane, 7mm-6.5 PRC, 7mm SAUM or the 300 WSM shooting 180 Hybrids (7mm) or the 200.20X or the 215's (WSM) when shooting a 20-shot string? No!
But it would likely surprise you how good it does.
I am NOT talking about hunting here. I am talking about shooting and accuracy.

 

[nralifer]

John,
I shoot a 308 Win some, and I like 3-O-Wait
Regardless of what it was originally built for or originally designed for, it is extremely accurate at 1000 yards.
When you add in the changing conditions at a grand is it going to keep up with the 284 Winchester, 284 Shehane, 7mm-6.5 PRC, 7mm SAUM or the 300 WSM shooting 180 Hybrids (7mm) or the 200.20X or the 215's (WSM) when shooting a 20-shot string? No!
But it would likely surprise you how good it does.
I am NOT talking about hunting here. I am talking about shooting and accuracy.

Now your post makes sense. You can extend that 1000 yds to about 1200 with a 175 gr bullet with a G1=0.603 going 2900 fps.

 

[Ernie]

Can I have that recipe? I can get a 200.20X going 2650 in a 30" barrel.

My 30" inch 308 Win, with the 200.20X runs 2620 fps. (Varget/match primers/Lapua Palma brass)
The gent's rifle you are talking about is most likely a F-TR rifle (like mine).
They are not built for hunting, but you can hunt with them.
They are target/comp rifles, built specifically for a shooting discipline called F-Class.
Typically we will shoot 20 strings at 600 and a 1000 yards, but sometimes you may be shooting at 500 yards or at 800 and 900 yards. The X-Ring is one half MOA in diameter, and the 10-Ring is 1 MOA in diameter.
These rifles are single-shot short actions, that are longthroated for the 180-200 grain VLD bullets.
When my son was in high school he killed a antelope at over 600 yards with my TR rig just to put a smile on Sebastian's face. We were using the 200 Hybrids back then.

 

[xsn10s]

My 30" inch 308 Win, with the 200.20X runs 2620 fps. (Varget/match primers/Lapua Palma brass)
The gent's rifle you are talking about is most likely a F-TR rifle (like mine).
They are not built for hunting, but you can hunt with them.
They are target/comp rifles, built specifically for a shooting discipline called F-Class.
Typically we will shoot 20 strings at 600 and a 1000 yards, but sometimes you may be shooting at 500 yards or at 800 and 900 yards. The X-Ring is one half MOA in diameter, and the 10-Ring is 1 MOA in diameter.
These rifles are single-shot short actions, that are longthroated for the 180-200 grain VLD bullets.
When my son was in high school he killed a antelope at over 600 yards with my TR rig just to put a smile on Sebastian's face. We were using the 200 Hybrids back then.

Yup that's exactly what I read. Most likely my 30-06 22" barrel will shoot the 200.20X around 2600 fps with CURRENT available powders. Probably more like 2550 fps.

 

[264WM]

Best way to improve it is to exchange it for a 30-06.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Best way to improve it is to exchange it for a 30-06.

If you are talking about improvement why not a RUM? The 100 FPS gained by the 308 to 30-06 is about 100 FPS...not enough to change anything...

Maximizing the 308 is what this is about...not re-chamber or get another rifle.

 

[h_1ag]

First of all you don't need a 30-6 rifle to get the 308Win outperforming standard 30-06 loads. I know this for a fact if you use the right components. Second point is that the drag of a given bullet has absolutely nothing to do with the case it is shot from. If I wanted to outperform any case I'll use my 50BMG shooting our 850 gr BR with a G7 BC of 0.623. That's right a G7. But that is totally irrelevant to the point of the thread.

Guess you missed the part where I said anything you can do to .308 can be done to .30-06. You can load up a great .30-06 recipe and get it outperforming many factory WinMag loads too. When it comes to shared diameters, there's no replacement for displacement.

I'm mostly just confused at this strange intersection of fuddery and ballistic science where guys are building very expensive custom rifles with +30" barrels, finely tuned hand loads, etc…. And then chambering it in a weak/small fudd cartridge when there are a dozen+ options that are all better for any given task, with the exception being cheap mil surplus ammo you can mag dump through an m14 or ar10.
Reminds me of buying a Chevy Nova or C10 and emptying your bank account on mods and custom tuning to get it to run a 13 second quarter mile when a new Camaro SS or Hellcat is available at the dealership for less and any/all of the mods you were going to do (superchargers, etc.) can also be applied to a more efficient base. Is this just nostalgia?

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Guess you missed the part where I said anything you can do to .308 can be done to .30-06. You can load up a great .30-06 recipe and get it outperforming many factory WinMag loads too. When it comes to shared diameters, there's no replacement for displacement.

I'm mostly just confused at this strange intersection of fuddery and ballistic science where guys are building very expensive custom rifles with +30" barrels, finely tuned hand loads, etc…. And then chambering it in a weak/small fudd cartridge when there are a dozen+ options that are all better for any given task, with the exception being cheap mil surplus ammo you can mag dump through an m14 or ar10.
Reminds me of buying a Chevy Nova or C10 and emptying your bank account on mods and custom tuning to get it to run a 13 second quarter mile when a new Camaro SS or Hellcat is available at the dealership for less and any/all of the mods you were going to do (superchargers, etc.) can also be applied to a more efficient base. Is this just nostalgia?

It's called first world problems...Highly doubt 97% of the folks on here are doing any of this type of thing as a sole means to provide for their families for real...If they were, ammo/components would be greatly reserved and doubt "long range" would be the way it was harvested. Instead most would make "long movements" to ensure they were going to put meat in da pot with every shot.

 

[G19Jeeper]

First of all you don't need a 30-6 rifle to get the 308Win outperforming standard 30-06 loads. I know this for a fact if you use the right components. Second point is that the drag of a given bullet has absolutely nothing to do with the case it is shot from. If I wanted to outperform any case I'll use my 50BMG shooting our 850 gr BR with a G7 BC of 0.623. That's right a G7. But that is totally irrelevant to the point of the thread.

You can't compare a handloaded .308 to .30-06 factory pudloads. It's irrelevant. Ive seen a few different factory .300 WM loads barely scrap by 06 levels with 150's. Actually comparing apples to apples, the .308 is still going to be more limited compared to its bigger brothers. You can't change that simple fact. My only point with the drag of the bullet is that a you would reach better efficiency if you chose a necked down counterpart that would have less drag and better ballistics which would translate to better down range numbers. I should've been a bit more clear on that.