I seriously doubt this is case head separation but what do you guys think?

[bigedp51]

J E CUSTOM

You do not even know what the cartage does when chambered and fired. And your problem is you won't even admit your wrong and keep side stepping the subject. And then have audacity to say the drawings and my statements are wrong to cover your backside and spout nothing but BS.

Example, you didn't even know what head clearance is and its in the SAAMI word definitions and "YOU" called it headspace.

HEAD CLEARANCE
http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=H
The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.

And you do not even know what yield strength means.

yield strength
noun
Physics
noun: yield strength; plural noun: yield strengths

1. (in materials that do not exhibit a well-defined yield point) the stress at which a specific amount of plastic deformation is produced, usually taken as 0.2 percent of the unstressed length.

Cartridge Brass Alloys Revealed by X-Ray Spectrometers
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/09/cartridge-brass-alloys-revealed-by-x-ray-spectrometers/

General Observations about Cartridge Brass Alloys
With the cartridge brass X-Ray Spectrometry results in hand, Fred Bohl hoped to find out what "real world" conclusions (if any) we could draw from the raw data. Fred sent the test results to some knowledgeable metallurgists, soliciting their comments. Fred explains: "When I first posted this information [in the Shooters' Forum], I had hoped to elicit replies from expert metallurgists and to initiate a useful discussion. From [their replies] I distilled the following 'consensus' comments":

1. The range of Copper/Zinc ratios suitable for use in cartridge making by typical processes is 85/15 to 65/35 (% by weight or mass).

2. The range of Copper/Zinc ratios suitable for use in cartridges intended for reloading is 80/20 to 70/30. Above 80% copper, the resulting case would tend to be too soft and difficult to attain the distribution of hardness desired (harder at the base and softer at the neck). Below 70% copper the resulting case would tend to be too hard, would work harden too quickly and require frequent annealing. [Editor: That said, the 'brown box' 6mmBR Lapua brass, with 62% copper/36% zinc content, enjoys an unrivaled reputation for both accuracy and its ability to perform well after a dozen or more reloading cycles. We know 30BR shooters who have shot the same old-style Lapua brass (6mmBR parent case) more than 50 times. So maybe the "expert" view needs re-thinking.]

3. As the percentage of zinc increases, the tensile strength, yield strength and hardness tend to increase. However, above 35% zinc, while tensile strength will continue to tend to increase, both yield strength and hardness will tend to begin to decrease.

Before the Internet people would read the front of the reloading manuals and try to learn something.

The OP cases are becoming longer when he resizes them and you tell him to have a gunsmith to check his rifles headspace.

You said you were not going to post any more, and I highly recommend you doing this before you embarrass yourself even more.

 

[J E Custom]

[QUOTE="bigedp51, post: 1410587,

[URL='http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/09/cartridge-brass-alloys-revealed-by-x-ray-spectrometers/']You said you were not going to post any more, and I highly recommend you doing this before you embarrass yourself even more.[/QUOTE][/URL]

For once you have given good advice !!! Even if it is to you.
I will continue to give my advice and rebut things that are wrong or simply a typo you don't have to read them.
I also didn't get my metallurgical knowledge on the internet, I lived and worked it.

I could look up all kinds of internet pictures and statements to copy, But I don't have to. I know how to head space any firearm and don't have to look it up on the interdnet.

this post started out with a question about case head separation and I think we helped the poster. before it turned into what it became. and out of respect for all I will not continue a fruitless pursuit and get back to what this site is all about.

J E CUSTOM

 

[bigedp51]

And they all lived happily ever after in the mythical kingdom where primers never move. And where midget elves sit at their computer pretending to be giants and spreading their bovine scat.

 

[TwoMore]

I for one really enjoy reading both of your guys posts, i can tell both have major amounts of knowledge. I wish we could defuse the pressure.

 

[bigedp51]

I for one really enjoy reading both of your guys posts, i can tell both have major amounts of knowledge. I wish we could defuse the pressure.

No pressure, the OP does not have a headspace problem and needs to inspect his fired cases and resized cases and learn where the marks came from on his cases.

The OP also needs to understand when you resize and squeeze a case it will grow in length.

And at least a few people here understand that the primer moves when fired.

It amazes me the comments made here and the fact that some people have never made a workup load and had the primer protruding from the primer pocket with lighter loads. Meaning understanding a primer does move by the amount of head clearance when the rifle is fired.

Bottom line my BS meter was working overtime with someone who should stick to muzzle breaks and not give any reloading advice.

 

[TwoMore]

I definitely have had my primers out a couple thousanths on lighter loads and have had to re seat them to get a case measurement for growth, and i have been guilty of putting a spent primer in a fired case and leave it out a bit and cycle it throught the action and then measure it to get a good shoulder to bolt face measurement but that will take out the spring back variable

 

[J E Custom]

No pressure, the OP does not have a headspace problem and needs to inspect his fired cases and resized cases and learn where the marks came from on his cases.

The OP also needs to understand when you resize and squeeze a case it will grow in length.

And at least a few people here understand that the primer moves when fired.

It amazes me the comments made here and the fact that some people have never made a workup load and had the primer protruding from the primer pocket with lighter loads. Meaning understanding a primer does move by the amount of head clearance when the rifle is fired.

Bottom line my BS meter was working overtime with someone who should stick to muzzle breaks and not give any reloading advice.

The fact that we disagree is ok with me. That's what makes this site so good. The fact that you want to keep throwing crap at me even though I have stopped trying to explain things to you leaves me only way to settle this.

I will send you a plane ticket and you can come down here and we can settle it Man To Man, so you don't/cant hide behind the safety of your key board .

How about it,

J E CUSTOM

 

[timberelk]

SLC?

Yes I'm in SLC. You in the general area?

 

[timberelk]

UPDATE FROM OP...

Went through the whole reloading process this morning and went out and shot (weather was 25 degrees with 15 mph wind from behind me). Groups were not great, my 1" group I shot last weekend shot a 2.5" 3 shot group. But I did try a 41 grain load I've never tried and it shot 3/4 with all this wind (maybe I found my best load?).

Anyways I digress... I set my FL die up to push the should back .001-.002 and the cases each grew between .005-.007 in total length. I then trimmed them all to .025 (a few were trimmed a little too far to .022-.024) and put them in the tumbler. Then I loaded them all up and went out a shot them.

I then measured each one and it looks like half of the cases stretched by .001-.003. A few stayed the same and a few appeared to shrink but those could be the ones that were accidentally trimmed to far to .022.

So it appears that during firing (this was the 3rd time these have been fired) they only grow by a few thousands but when FL sizing they grow by .005-.007 resulting in me needing to trim each time because my total stretch is around .010 (.001-.003 from firing plus .005-.007 from the die = .006-0.10" approx stretch).

I had to set my Hornady FL die to contact the shell holder plus 1/4 turn in order to bump the should back approx .001-.002

And I still got the same shinny/dull sections that started this whole thread. I'm thinking that the dull is where it expands to my chamber and the shinny is where the brass didn't expand at all and still has the polished look from the tumbler media (see picture)

Also in a side note I loaded a total of 9 cases with 38.5 grains of RL15 (starting load) with 150 ELD-x bullets. 3 were at approx .030 off the lands, 3 were approx .070 off the lands and the last 3 were at .100 off the lands. All shot like crap but the .100 shot the "best"

 

[bigedp51]

My BS meter is going off scale J E CUSTOM, you can't explain something you know nothing about.

You can doubt all you want. the case head has considerable more square inches of surface than the flash hole and will move long before the primer even sees enough pressure to move it and by the time pressure get high enough the case is already slammed against the bolt face preventing any movement and sealing the primer. also if the primer moved, it would leak and carbon would be present where it had been. it would also gas cut the primer pocket. it is a simple mater of physics, the bigger piston with more surface will always move first.

That's a nice picture but it is simply not true.
J E CUSTOM

Sierra Rifle FAQs
FAQ - Sierra Bullets - The Bulletsmiths
Are flattened primers always an indication of high pressure?
"Not necessarily. Follow along for a moment. At the cartridge's ignition, a light load won't always fully expand the case within the chamber. It does, however, develop enough pressure to force the primer out of the pocket and against the bolt face, at least as much as headspace will allow. An instant after the primer has been forced back out of the pocket, the pressure will begin to drive the case backwards towards the bolt face. As the case moves back, it reseats the primer, often flattening it in the process. When the case is extracted and examined, the primer will appear to have been used in an extremely high pressure load. In some instances, primers can be a good indication of pressure. In others, they can be extremely misleading and utterly worthless as pressure indicators."

Now tell us again that a primer never moves, tell us again the OP should take his rifle to a gunsmith.
I have never seen as much BS in reloading forums than "YOUR" postings J E CUSTOM.

Bottom line, stick to muzzle brakes and stop giving out bad information in a reloading forum.

Have a nice day

 

[Edd]

UPDATE FROM OP...
...I had to set my Hornady FL die to contact the shell holder plus 1/4 turn in order to bump the should back approx .001-.002 ......

I don't understand this part. How can you adjust your die shorter than touching the shell holder?

 

[timberelk]

I don't understand this part. How can you adjust your die shorter than touching the shell holder?

You just turn it in 1/4" last touching so you get a camming action when you push the lever on the press all the way down. I tried sizing brass with the die touching the shell holder and it didn't bump the neck back. In fact it did the opposite, it pushed the neck out further by .001-.002". So it would take my fire firmed brass that had the neck at .627 and push it out to .628-.629"

 

[TwoMore]

This is a red flag for me maybe the die is a mismatch to the chamber

 

[Edd]

You just turn it in 1/4" last touching so you get a camming action when you push the lever on the press all the way down. I tried sizing brass with the die touching the shell holder and it didn't bump the neck back. In fact it did the opposite, it pushed the neck out further by .001-.002". So it would take my fire firmed brass that had the neck at .627 and push it out to .628-.629"

Your luck is better than mine. I have never had a die that was exactly the right length. I have always had to grind or shim something.