History's Sniper show

[RS2G]

I just deploy to the ranch to shoot long range 100, 300, 600, and 1250(very large hill used for back stop for 1250 hence the more than 1k)

Well said and absolutely true. How one can't see this is beyond me.

I'll be the first to admit that there was a little luck involved in all my rockchuck kills I've made past one mile. But I had ammo that was tuned for my rifle, had accurate rangefinders, had perfect conditions, had lots of practice, and had top of the line equipment designed for the task at hand, AND WAS ACTUALLY AIMING AT THE ROCKCHUCKS I INTENDED TO HIT! In essence, I WAS PREPARED so that a little luck could find me if chance happened. Some of these snipers mis-ranged their targets, had ammo that wasn't tuned for their rifle, were shooting at idiots that were partially suicidal, were aiming "in the general area" of the target, were taking shots past the design funtion of their equipment, placing shots that were subsonic (that's a whole other can of worms), and one guy just aimed at a wall and HOPED to shotgun his targets with shrapnel!! IN OTHER WORDS, THEY WERE MORE LUCKY THAN ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PREPARED FOR THE SHOTS THEY ATTEMPTED. The only reason they actually hit anything was because they FLUKED into it. The evidence of this is when they THEMSELVES admitted they couldn't duplicate those shots in a million more tries.

REALLY, REALLY? I can't believe I am reading this kind of stuff posted on this forum.

I have been lurking on here for a long time and this is the first time I have ever been motivated to post anything. How can you guys even compare shooting rock chucks and steel gongs past 1000 yards to anything close to what ANY of these snipers did?

You can claim it was luck if you want. But the fact remains that not one of those shots were taken without the sniper executing the perfect fundamentals of his craft.

At the time the sniper pulls the trigger he KNOWS the bullet will hit where he placed his point of aim. If he in the end misses he corrects his hold or dope and fires again if the target presents him with another opportunity. Without 100% confidence your probability of a hit drops dramatically. Luck is never a factor in the shooters mind.

Yes there are the "**** dude did you just see that" moments but in the end the sniper uses his training to effectively engage targets with the equipment he is issued.

Too many people seem to think that their skills as a marksman give them the ability to dissect an event in a combat situation and break it down into something they themselves could have or could not have done. Combat sniping and long range hunting have far less in common than you may think. The science behind the shots maybe the same, but the mental focus and intestinal fortitude required is not.

Get back to what this site is about, hunting.

 

[Pdvdh]

This is the 'General Discussion' subsection of the Forums. Do you really feel the need and propose to control what others choose to discuss in this subsection?

Let's just say all snipers walk on water. There... is that good enough?

Now can other non-sniper members proceed with the discusson in their less-a-human-being-than-a-sniper status?

Cripes. I never knew we needed to meet 'other's' definitions of a sniper to measure up. And you think you're supporting snipers as a whole by perpetuating the attitude?

 

[Buffalobob]

RS2G
Welcome. There are three subjects that seem to entice forum members to make posts about subjects that they actually know little about. Wolves is one of them. Head shots is another. And finally anything to do with snipers.

99% of the time forum members restrain themselves and deal only with those subjects that they actually have some factual information on. Its a very nice place to come and learn stuff.

Goodgrouper who started this thread is a very good guy and a very accomplished hunter but he like to get down on snipers and BDCs. Usually I don't mind too much because it is just him and what he likes and doesn't like. At the exact moment I not so inclined to give him or anyone else a free pass on snipers. He is a very nice guy and went on up and gave the BDC people a bad time.

 

[Boss Hoss]

REALLY, REALLY? I can't believe I am reading this kind of stuff posted on this forum.

I have been lurking on here for a long time and this is the first time I have ever been motivated to post anything. How can you guys even compare shooting rock chucks and steel gongs past 1000 yards to anything close to what ANY of these snipers did?

You can claim it was luck if you want. But the fact remains that not one of those shots were taken without the sniper executing the perfect fundamentals of his craft.

At the time the sniper pulls the trigger he KNOWS the bullet will hit where he placed his point of aim. If he in the end misses he corrects his hold or dope and fires again if the target presents him with another opportunity. Without 100% confidence your probability of a hit drops dramatically. Luck is never a factor in the shooters mind.

Yes there are the "**** dude did you just see that" moments but in the end the sniper uses his training to effectively engage targets with the equipment he is issued.

Too many people seem to think that their skills as a marksman give them the ability to dissect an event in a combat situation and break it down into something they themselves could have or could not have done. Combat sniping and long range hunting have far less in common than you may think. The science behind the shots maybe the same, but the mental focus and intestinal fortitude required is not.

Get back to what this site is about, hunting.

It is obvious that you are one of the folks who read about shooting long distance and play on the internet boards to make those comments. Go and get some trigger time and learn about what it takes with respect to equipment, knowledge and skill. Then you will learn to keep your mouth shut before making an *** out of yourself.

I am only speaking about equipment and contrary to anything you want to apply from watching movies or reading on shooting boards, physics are physics. Have shot with active and retired military shooters a few times during competitions and have never ever heard one say he wishes he had his issue rifle.

In short and the truth hurts here-----you do not know what you are talking about when speaking about skills and equipment required to shoot long distance albeit it people or steel for that matter.

The mental part as well as the training required to get yourself into position without being detected, stay in position without being detected, make the shot then withdraw without being detected are a different matter all together.

One of the best Snipers who has ever pulled a trigger was Carlos Hathcock (I met and talked to him at the SHOT Show in Dallas in the later stages of his life when as a result of his service to this country his body was almost gone yes it was sad)----read his book and then get back to me about the hunting comment because the "Gunny" does not agree with you.

This is a quote from Buffalobob when asked "do you shoot competition":

"I am one of those people who do not like to practice and it is difficult for me to go and practice. Shooting competition is my form of practice. I am not very good at it but I show up and shoot my bullets and experiment with my stuff." Well sorry but seems to me that you may be one of those "all hat and no cattle folks" as we like to say in Texas. LOL

Case Closed Bob.

 

[RS2G]

1.It is obvious that you are one of the folks who read about shooting long distance and play on the internet boards to make those comments. Go and get some trigger time and learn about what it takes with respect to equipment, knowledge and skill. Then you will learn to keep your mouth shut before making an *** out of yourself.

If you want I will send you a pm with my military service record. You speek of the knowledge and skill required to make a long distance shot in one post but then claim that it was luck and SWAG in another.

2.I am only speaking about equipment and contrary to anything you want to apply from watching movies or reading on shooting boards, physics are physics. Have shot with active and retired military shooters a few times during competitions and have never ever heard one say he wishes he had his issue rifle.

I said the science was the same did i not? The statements you made went beyond equipment.

3.In short and the truth hurts here-----you do not know what you are talking about when speaking about skills and equipment required to shoot long distance albeit it people or steel for that matter.

Hmmm. are you sure?

4.The mental part as well as the training required to get yourself into position without being detected, stay in position without being detected, make the shot then withdraw without being detected are a different matter all together.

Agreed, so how does that factor into your luck equation?

5.One of the best Snipers who has ever pulled a trigger was Carlos Hathcock (I met and talked to him at the SHOT Show in Dallas in the later stages of his life when as a result of his service to this country his body was almost gone yes it was sad)----read his book and then get back to me about the hunting comment because the "Gunny" does not agree with you.

In selection of a sniper for training an outdoor background is a great base to start with. Even the "Gunny" stated it was a base.

.

maybe we should all take a deep breath.

 

[captacademy]

Ditto, thanks for the video 280 Fan!!!!!

 

[Boss Hoss]

maybe we should all take a deep breath.

Sorry and don't mean to hurt your feelings here but you are so in the weeds you do not even know you are there. My input into this matter is closed the 8 year olds can go at it if they want to. If you compete let me know where you travel to shoot maybe we will see how good you are?

I am getting into point blank stuff this year---Have not shot 100 yards in competition before and it is a completely different game altogether but I love a challenge.

You folks have fun with this one.

 

[RS2G]

I'll send you the address for the local army recrueter, only "competetive" shooting I have done was with a target that shot back. Been thinking about reenlisting anyway.

I am out, this wasn't worth my time in the first place.

 

[MachV]

The snipers did the best they could do with what they had. I just wonder how GG would have done under the same circumstances??

 

[Buffalobob]

Boss Hoss

Your first post on this thread was ranked # 1 as the very dumbest until ATH showed up. He dropped you all the way to 3rd place until you decided to post this

I met and talked to him at the SHOT Show in Dallas in the later stages of his life

While this one does not regain you first place because ATH has that really nailed down tight, it at least does get you back into 2nd place.

Well sorry but seems to me that you may be one of those "all hat and no cattle folks" as we like to say in Texas

Any day you wish to compare combat records with me you just post up your numbers and the names and addresses of the men who were there with you and can verify the body counts. Oh yeah just in case you know as little about combat as it seems, dead paper targets don't count.

 

[NONYA]

When someone here makes the same shot with less trouble then maybe you could criticize his shooting,untill then....

 

[ATH]

BuffaloBob,

If snipers are so un-humanly perfect, why do they ever miss? If the perfection you profess is real misses would not happen. Every 2600m shot would result in a kill through the heart. Rarely have I ever seen a thread reeking so bad of BS. At least the sniper had the honesty to admit there was some luck involved, sorry but I'll take his word for it over your anonymous and smoke-blowing internet persona.

The level of assinine being played out in this thread is exemplified in this:

"At the time the sniper pulls the trigger he KNOWS the bullet will hit where he placed his point of aim. If he in the end misses he corrects his hold or dope and fires again if the target presents him with another opportunity. Without 100% confidence your probability of a hit drops dramatically. Luck is never a factor in the shooters mind. "

If they KNOW it, why does it take 3 shots to make the hit? Sure, they are confident in their skills and rightfully so. But that does not mean that they will be successful 100% of the time. That is an unrealistic expectation (or, on this forum, profession of their skills). Being confident and how that plays out in the real world are two very different things. I call BS that snipers are 100% confident in every hit, if they were they would be devastated when they missed and not know how to react as that was not a possibility in their mind. Instead, they understand that is a possibility and react quickly and professionally to correct for whatever variance from expected conditions (wind, distance etc) caused the miss and take another shot.

Judging the wind is hard enough at reasonable ranges within the normal operating parameters of one's equipment. Across unreasonably long ranges with unknown ammo, no flags, etc etc....nobody could realistically know exactly where the wind would carry the round. I've shot across valleys where wind direction changed a couple times and that is small potatoes to what this Canadian sniper managed to do. He made his best guess, took a shot, and MISSED. Just like 99.99% of snipers or anyone else would. But instead of reeling in shock because he'd been 100% confident that he'd hit under such impossible conditions, he quickly compensated and got the job done (both the second and third shots were on-target, likely well within the precision of the weapon). However if we are to believe you, we could put ANY sniper behind that rifle under similar conditions and they would hit a man-sized target in 3 shots or less.

Care to take that bet?

We'd also see former snipers taking all F-class and 1000-yd titles as they'd shoot perfect scores in every match. Why don't we see this? Do they lose their edge the minute they leave the service?

Again, he hit a target that was most certainly smaller than the precision of his weapon at that distance. By definition, there was an element of luck/chance/serendipity involved in where the bullet actually hit. There is ALWAYS an element of chance involved in shooting, which is why we shoot groups and not bug holes.

Somebody's got some serious insecurity issues if they can't take the fact that a little luck helped out a very skilled shooter do something beyond what he had trained to do while handicapped by unknown ammo out of his control or prediction. And the whole "old sniper trick" about heating up the ammo? C'mon....the BS meter breaks on that one. If you don't know how many FPS it's going to do nothing but introduce yet one more unknown.

 

[ATH]

One last question BB --

Since there was zero luck involved, please explain for us non-snipers exactly how one calculates the hold-off for ammunition they have never shot, using a bullet they have never shot, at a range no sniper has ever shot? Because according to you he did this with zero error.

 

[Pdvdh]

And here I was afraid this thread had pettered out.

No worries. Buffalobob has now taken a commanding lead, and has a solid 'lock' on first place.