History's Sniper show

[goodgrouper]

Bill-

If that were the case, then they would all be kills on the first shot. In the case of the Canadian sniper, he did NOT have control over the movements of his targets, the winds, the burn rates of powder, the manufacturing tolerances of any of the components involved, etc.. etc ..

The one thing he had was the training to put himself in the position of pulling the trigger. Everything else was well outside his control, therefore making the shot luck. Heck, he was using the mildots at a 4 over and 4 right hold at 2640 yards. There's no sort of practice that could produce consistent minute of taliban shooting that would make that shot anything better than luck.

Granted he improved his probability by firing more than one shot.

Well said and absolutely true. How one can't see this is beyond me.

I'll be the first to admit that there was a little luck involved in all my rockchuck kills I've made past one mile. But I had ammo that was tuned for my rifle, had accurate rangefinders, had perfect conditions, had lots of practice, and had top of the line equipment designed for the task at hand, AND WAS ACTUALLY AIMING AT THE ROCKCHUCKS I INTENDED TO HIT! In essence, I WAS PREPARED so that a little luck could find me if chance happened. Some of these snipers mis-ranged their targets, had ammo that wasn't tuned for their rifle, were shooting at idiots that were partially suicidal, were aiming "in the general area" of the target, were taking shots past the design funtion of their equipment, placing shots that were subsonic (that's a whole other can of worms), and one guy just aimed at a wall and HOPED to shotgun his targets with shrapnel!! IN OTHER WORDS, THEY WERE MORE LUCKY THAN ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PREPARED FOR THE SHOTS THEY ATTEMPTED. The only reason they actually hit anything was because they FLUKED into it. The evidence of this is when they THEMSELVES admitted they couldn't duplicate those shots in a million more tries.

But methinks that ol' Bill's perceptions of the world are such that arguing with him is pointless and makes us waste valuable time. We'd have a better chance of convincing a skunk that he stinks!

 

[bwaites]

Well said and absolutely true. How one can't see this is beyond me.

I'll be the first to admit that there was a little luck involved in all my rockchuck kills I've made past one mile. But I had ammo that was tuned for my rifle, had accurate rangefinders, had perfect conditions, had lots of practice, and had top of the line equipment designed for the task at hand, AND WAS ACTUALLY AIMING AT THE ROCKCHUCKS I INTENDED TO HIT! In essence, I WAS PREPARED so that a little luck could find me if chance happened. Some of these snipers mis-ranged their targets, had ammo that wasn't tuned for their rifle, were shooting at idiots that were partially suicidal, were aiming "in the general area" of the target, were taking shots past the design funtion of their equipment, placing shots that were subsonic (that's a whole other can of worms), and one guy just aimed at a wall and HOPED to shotgun his targets with shrapnel!! IN OTHER WORDS, THEY WERE MORE LUCKY THAN ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT PREPARED FOR THE SHOTS THEY ATTEMPTED. The only reason they actually hit anything was because they FLUKED into it. The evidence of this is when they THEMSELVES admitted they couldn't duplicate those shots in a million more tries.

But methinks that ol' Bill's perceptions of the world are such that arguing with him is pointless and makes us waste valuable time. We'd have a better chance of convincing a skunk that he stinks!

No, actually I have a better chance of teaching a 3 year the concept of Einsteins Theory of Relativity than getting some of you to actually acknowledge that you don't undestand the concept of luck nor the proper English usage of the word.

Regardless of how many definitions I point out, you seem to have decided upon your own!

Being able to duplicate something has nothing to do with it being lucky or not.

Repeatability and consistency have nothing to do with the concept of luck!

If you cannot understand that luck, by its very definition, DEMANDS that no input on your part affects it, than you cannot begin to understand that what occurred with the snipers was not luck!

If you don't understand the language, you can't begin to appreciate the concepts!

Sorry guys, but the use of "luck" in these cases is completely inappropriate.

Bill

 

[Boss Hoss]

Anyone who does not realize that there is an element of luck involved here is not experienced in shooting at distance and judging condition esp using new ammo. "Old Snipers Trick" LMFAO on that one!!!!!

Just a fact but hey some read and post a lot more than they actually get out and shoot at long range. Those are the real experts here lol.

 

[bwaites]

The problem stems from a lack of understanding of the word as used in the English language, or a basic lack of understanding of the concept, I'm not sure which is the case.

Luck is what you have when you win at roulette, or dice, or anything else where you have no input on the factors.

Was there an ELEMENT of chance involved? I would agree to that. Certainly the wind alone induced that element. There were other factors that influenced the shot that were not controlled by the shooter, so there were elements of chance that were in play.

But luck, luck means that there was no preparation, no factors that the shooter had control over. That was simply NOT THE CASE.

Learn English, use it properly, and then there would be little debate here. But to denigrate the skills, judgement, and preparation of the shooters here by calling these shots "lucky" is almost obscene.

Bill

 

[MSU Marksman]

No, actually I have a better chance of teaching a 3 year the concept of Einsteins Theory of Relativity than getting some of you to actually acknowledge that you don't undestand the concept of luck nor the proper English usage of the word.

Regardless of how many definitions I point out, you seem to have decided upon your own!

Being able to duplicate something has nothing to do with it being lucky or not.

Repeatability and consistency have nothing to do with the concept of luck!

If you cannot understand that luck, by its very definition, DEMANDS that no input on your part affects it, than you cannot begin to understand that what occurred with the snipers was not luck!

If you don't understand the language, you can't begin to appreciate the concepts!

Sorry guys, but the use of "luck" in these cases is completely inappropriate.

Bill

luck /lʌk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [luhk] Show IPA

Use luck in a Sentence


See web results for luck


See images of luck

–noun 1.the force that seems to operate for good or ill in a person's life, as in shaping circumstances, events, or opportunities: With my luck I'll probably get pneumonia. 2.good fortune; advantage or success, considered as the result of chance: He had no luck finding work. 3.a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person: She's had nothing but bad luck all year. 4.some object on which good fortune is supposed to depend: This rabbit's foot is my luck.



Pretty sure that #3 defines these shots to a "T". But that's just based on the standard english definition of the work "LUCK".

 

[bwaites]

luck /lʌk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [luhk] Show IPA

Use luck in a Sentence


See web results for luck


See images of luck

–noun 1.the force that seems to operate for good or ill in a person's life, as in shaping circumstances, events, or opportunities: With my luck I'll probably get pneumonia. 2.good fortune; advantage or success, considered as the result of chance: He had no luck finding work. 3.a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person: She's had nothing but bad luck all year. 4.some object on which good fortune is supposed to depend: This rabbit's foot is my luck.



Pretty sure that #3 defines these shots to a "T". But that's just based on the standard english definition of the work "LUCK".

Definition number 3 implies NO INPUT FROM THE SHOOTER, and that has already been proven NOT TO BE THE CASE. The operative phrase is "operating by chance". That would mean the gun would have to fire on it's own, without operator input, after aligning itself with the proper quadrant to fire, once again without operator input. That is what "operating by chance" means.

If you don't understand the language, and you can't even understand the definition, there is no argument.

There were ELEMENTS of chance involved with these shots, just as there is with any shot of significant length, but that does not make them "lucky" shots!

However, I'm done, if you can't understand English and its proper use, then go ahead and think these were lucky!

Bill

 

[edge]

Clearly by most standards used in this thread almost all of the long range shots ( 1,000yds + )written about here over the years could be in the category of LUCK!

Yes you practice with thousands of rounds;
Yes you range the target accurately;
Yes you double check your range charts or PDA;

If the wind changes or the animal moves in the 3 second TOF you might say that was bad luck, but if conditions remain identical then that is clearly good luck!

Congratulations to the LUCKY hunters here and to the Lucky snipers ridding the world of terrorists

edge.

PS it is way too close to Christmas to worry about the definition of luck!

 

[jmason]

PS it is way too close to Christmas to worry about the definition of luck!

If anyone has any to spare I'll take it! Just thought I'd throw that out there

 

[john g duvall]

+1 goodgrouper same here, I just thought the shot was an absolutely amazing feat by the Canadian sniper. I didn't know just how much luck was involved. I find it really amazing they put their life on the line to help in the offensive. I think you took our intent wrong...

I watched the same show. "USMC Force Recon Scout Sniper" Chuck Mawhinney took out 16 NVA with 16 shots..all of them confirmed. He used the M-14 with a 20 round clip at night looking through a "Starlight" scope. That is one shot one kill with the greatest probability of impact. Maybe you went to the kitchen for food during that part of the film. Any man that has been in the field knows that to "take the shot" you better be absolutely ready. I am thankful for all the guys who served honorably for the USA. There are many other great sniper feats that will remain unknown to the public (Black Ops). That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Let us be thankful for the guys we have who put it on the line every day to keep us safe. J.D. formerly of the (435th CSG Ground Tactical LRS 1972-1976) "Gung Ho x 3"!

 

[trebark]

I watched the same show. "USMC Force Recon Scout Sniper" Chuck Mawhinney took out 16 NVA with 16 shots..all of them confirmed. He used the M-14 with a 20 round clip at night looking through a "Starlight" scope. That is one shot one kill with the greatest probability of impact. Maybe you went to the kitchen for food during that part of the film. Any man that has been in the field knows that to "take the shot" you better be absolutely ready. I am thankful for all the guys who served honorably for the USA. There are many other great sniper feats that will remain unknown to the public (Black Ops). That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Let us be thankful for the guys we have who put it on the line every day to keep us safe. J.D. formerly of the (435th CSG Ground Tactical LRS 1972-1976) "Gung Ho x 3"!

I agree that we should be thankful for all those that serve our country. but why did you have to go and get all serious when there's a perfectly good ****ing match over the definition of luck going on!

 

[bwaites]

Clearly by most standards used in this thread almost all of the long range shots ( 1,000yds + )written about here over the years could be in the category of LUCK!

Yes you practice with thousands of rounds;
Yes you range the target accurately;
Yes you double check your range charts or PDA;

If the wind changes or the animal moves in the 3 second TOF you might say that was bad luck, but if conditions remain identical then that is clearly good luck!

Congratulations to the LUCKY hunters here and to the Lucky snipers ridding the world of terrorists

edge.

PS it is way too close to Christmas to worry about the definition of luck!

Edge,

Thanks for putting it in perspective!!

Merry Christmas everyone!!!!

Keep your powder dry and your head down!!!

To those who serve our Country--Thank you, and may God be with you!


Bill

 

[john g duvall]

I agree that we should be thankful for all those that serve our country. but why did you have to go and get all serious when there's a perfectly good ****ing match over the definition of luck going on!

If you are following current events on "FOX" news then you know that the time for all of us to "band together" is here and has been for some time. "Know Your Enemy". (The Art Of War..Sun Tzu) Serious?? You **** right I'm serious. Any man out there that isn't "serious" could end up a casualty. The time for "grab assing" is over ....you know it and so do alot of other guys. Be ready.....stay ready....watch, listen and know who will stand with you when the time comes.

 

[Pdvdh]

I have the show taped on DVR, can't wait to watch now!

Danged, I don't get cable and we still talk over a string tied between two cans up here.

 

[goodgrouper]

–noun 1.the force that seems to operate for good or ill in a person's life, as in shaping circumstances, events, or opportunities: With my luck I'll probably get pneumonia. 2.good fortune; advantage or success, considered as the result of chance: He had no luck finding work. 3.a combination of circumstances, events, etc., operating by chance to bring good or ill to a person: She's had nothing but bad luck all year. 4.some object on which good fortune is supposed to depend: This rabbit's foot is my luck.



Pretty sure that #3 defines these shots to a "T". But that's just based on the standard english definition of the work "LUCK".

Bingo!

P.S. Just watched another filming of the shot in which the sniper himself said, "it was a pretty lucky shot now that I look back at it". I guess that stupid sniper needs to go back and learn English with the rest of all the millions of dumb people who have ever said "lucky shot" because we're using the wrong word! Thanks Bill for enlightening a whole language. I'll make sure the next time I hear someone say, "that was a lucky shot" I will slap them on the wrist and tell them it's not lucky, it chance! Sheeeesh......