For the Op Weatherby chambers the Accumark in .338Lapua now as well if you want to stick to the lapua. Also, I've owned Accumarks and they are great rifles. They are heavy for a backpacking rifle but great shooting rifles.
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Heavy vs Light Long Range Rifle
- Thread starter Jay Kyle
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RMulhern
Well-Known Member
lightbulbMe thinks some folks are too 'thin-skinned'!!
SansSouci
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay,
22 pounds is a heavy gun. I have a Sako 7MM Rem Mag. With scope, it weighs 10 pounds. That rifle becomes heavy in a hurry while carrying it up and down Rocky Mountain ridges.
Weight of rifle does help with recoil when bench shooting. Should you go with a lighter rifle chambered for a big cartridge, it might be uncomfortable to shoot from a bench.
Weatherby manufacturers excellent rifles. Sako guarantees a 5-shot one-inch group. There are other rifles that are of top quality as well.
While I have made what I'd consider long range shots with both a .270 Win & a 7MM Rem Mag, I've never attempted shots that many of you long range hunters are capable.
For me, I consider 10 pounds to be heavy. In fact, I think that for the rest of my hunting career, I'm going to use a lighter .270 Win for everything. But then again, I want to be prepared to move to where animals are. It's common for me to walk miles a day in the Rockies. I know my limitations, and a 10 pound rifle is my limitation.
22 pounds is a heavy gun. I have a Sako 7MM Rem Mag. With scope, it weighs 10 pounds. That rifle becomes heavy in a hurry while carrying it up and down Rocky Mountain ridges.
Weight of rifle does help with recoil when bench shooting. Should you go with a lighter rifle chambered for a big cartridge, it might be uncomfortable to shoot from a bench.
Weatherby manufacturers excellent rifles. Sako guarantees a 5-shot one-inch group. There are other rifles that are of top quality as well.
While I have made what I'd consider long range shots with both a .270 Win & a 7MM Rem Mag, I've never attempted shots that many of you long range hunters are capable.
For me, I consider 10 pounds to be heavy. In fact, I think that for the rest of my hunting career, I'm going to use a lighter .270 Win for everything. But then again, I want to be prepared to move to where animals are. It's common for me to walk miles a day in the Rockies. I know my limitations, and a 10 pound rifle is my limitation.
Jay Kyle
Well-Known Member
22 lbs is all dressed, meaning the heavy fill A-5, Straight taper 30" barrel on a Rem action, Sinclair tactical bipod, Nightforce scope, any other bling I can load it up with, etc. Even trimming it down it's still too heavy - a beautiful gun I thought would go with me to the grave - and may still as I have mixed emotions on selling it.
But as I get older and more tired (and hopefully wiser but that's debatable), I see the need to be more functional - to get a firearm that fits my capabilities and the demands of the areas I hunt.
There's lot of great firearms out there - TRR's, Sakos, many others, and lots of great customs- but it's really about fit for function, and a little pride of ownership.
Right now the two rifles that get my attention are the new Weatherby Arroyo RC, and the LKRM.
I have pictures on my wall of my relatives hunting in Africa complete with the Pith Helmets, the double guns, the porters, wall tents, and the catch of the day lined up in front of them all. For some reason getting a Weatherby makes me feel a little closer to them - though I doubt I'll ever make it to Africa - not really the best reason to consider in a purchase - but hey! it's part of the fun.
Jay
But as I get older and more tired (and hopefully wiser but that's debatable), I see the need to be more functional - to get a firearm that fits my capabilities and the demands of the areas I hunt.
There's lot of great firearms out there - TRR's, Sakos, many others, and lots of great customs- but it's really about fit for function, and a little pride of ownership.
Right now the two rifles that get my attention are the new Weatherby Arroyo RC, and the LKRM.
I have pictures on my wall of my relatives hunting in Africa complete with the Pith Helmets, the double guns, the porters, wall tents, and the catch of the day lined up in front of them all. For some reason getting a Weatherby makes me feel a little closer to them - though I doubt I'll ever make it to Africa - not really the best reason to consider in a purchase - but hey! it's part of the fun.
Jay
Jay Kyle
Well-Known Member
Mike,
I think we were chatting over on Weatherby Nation about this very topic. I've been giving it some thought - as I was debating putting my Nightforce on a Weatherby but was worried about the weight as compared to a VX6. Tough decision - in your case you've got two good scopes, so the decision is a bit easier - but in mine it's keep the Nightforce 5.5-22x56 which is a scope I trust, or dropping an extra $2000 (Canadian pricing) on a VX6 4-24x52 and mounts for an 8-12oz. weight reduction.
Jay
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Jay,
We build lightweight 7mm, 300 and 338FXs (full length Lapua imps) on trued Rem titanium actions with 28" barrels and carbon fiber stocks that come in under 8lb all up including the new March 3-24x52mm scope (23oz). With one of our angled port 7000 series alloy brakes, the 338 version is very shootable even off the bench with the 300gn at just under 3000fps.
But don't try and shoot them without the brake with that load though, that's not nice! We do a spook and shoot load with a 185gn TTSX at 3100fps for using without the brake, and that is perfectly manageable for a stalking load that will be shot mostly standing up when you don't have time to use hearing protection.
We find the lightweight long range guns get far more use out hunting than the heavyweights!
Greg
http://s65.photobucket.com/user/Gre...3portNZHbrakeNZHedgestock.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
(This one has a 42mm objective March on it, but you get the idea)
We build lightweight 7mm, 300 and 338FXs (full length Lapua imps) on trued Rem titanium actions with 28" barrels and carbon fiber stocks that come in under 8lb all up including the new March 3-24x52mm scope (23oz). With one of our angled port 7000 series alloy brakes, the 338 version is very shootable even off the bench with the 300gn at just under 3000fps.
But don't try and shoot them without the brake with that load though, that's not nice! We do a spook and shoot load with a 185gn TTSX at 3100fps for using without the brake, and that is perfectly manageable for a stalking load that will be shot mostly standing up when you don't have time to use hearing protection.
We find the lightweight long range guns get far more use out hunting than the heavyweights!
Greg
http://s65.photobucket.com/user/Gre...3portNZHbrakeNZHedgestock.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
(This one has a 42mm objective March on it, but you get the idea)
SansSouci
Well-Known Member
Hi NZ Longranger,
Your rifles sound beautiful.
I hunt the Rockies exclusively. I prefer barrels no longer than 24" inches. Just over a month ago, my guide had me in very think cover. I was using my 24" barreled Sako chambered for 7MM Rem Mag. While I was able to maneuver it in thick brush, I wished I had had my lighter 22" barreled .270 Win. I like light, fast-handling rifles with barrels no longer than 24". But that's merely my preference that was formed hunting some think areas. Anyway, my guide put me on a huge 900lb+ bull elk at 130 yards away. One 160 grain Partition from my 7MM Rem Mag, one dead huge elk that scored better than 370. The rub is I could have killed it just as dead with my much lighter and shorter .270 Win with a 150 grain Partition provided it went in the identical spot (its heart).
The contrast is I have made a couple very long shots in open meadows of the Rockies. One was a mule deer buck and the other was a buck antelope. I shot the antelope with my 22" barreled .270 Win and the mule deer with my 24" barreled Sako 7MM Rem Mag.
So I will agree with you. Lightweight guns are used most often in the Rockies where elevation is often 9000' and above, which means breathing is labored and heart rates are off EKG's. In fact, in all my years of hunting the Rockies, I have yet to see a hunter carrying anything other than a sporter.
Your pictured rifle is beautiful and master crafted. Were I in the market for such a really long range sporting rifle, I'd certainly give your rifles a lot of consideration. However, I'd go with a cartridge that's much more manageable for me. I have fired large caliber rifles from benches. I'm right up front with my not liking a lot of recoil. Recoil does cause me to flinch. The 7MM Rem Mag is the largest cartridge that I can bench shoot out of a sporting rifle without recoil becoming an issue. A man's got to know his limitations, and I know mine.
I do know of a few high mountain meadows where your rifle that's pictured above would be lights out for mule deer bucks sneaking across. One of your rifles in 7MM Rem Mag would be just the ticket for putting mule deer lights out at very long range.
But when I have to be mobile in pursuit of game, I'll grab a my 22" barreled Sako in .270 Win. From experience, when we're talking high elevation, weight is a huge concern. And where brush gets thick, for me shorter barrels are the way to go. But I can certainly see how other hunters have it figured differently.
Your rifles sound beautiful.
I hunt the Rockies exclusively. I prefer barrels no longer than 24" inches. Just over a month ago, my guide had me in very think cover. I was using my 24" barreled Sako chambered for 7MM Rem Mag. While I was able to maneuver it in thick brush, I wished I had had my lighter 22" barreled .270 Win. I like light, fast-handling rifles with barrels no longer than 24". But that's merely my preference that was formed hunting some think areas. Anyway, my guide put me on a huge 900lb+ bull elk at 130 yards away. One 160 grain Partition from my 7MM Rem Mag, one dead huge elk that scored better than 370. The rub is I could have killed it just as dead with my much lighter and shorter .270 Win with a 150 grain Partition provided it went in the identical spot (its heart).
The contrast is I have made a couple very long shots in open meadows of the Rockies. One was a mule deer buck and the other was a buck antelope. I shot the antelope with my 22" barreled .270 Win and the mule deer with my 24" barreled Sako 7MM Rem Mag.
So I will agree with you. Lightweight guns are used most often in the Rockies where elevation is often 9000' and above, which means breathing is labored and heart rates are off EKG's. In fact, in all my years of hunting the Rockies, I have yet to see a hunter carrying anything other than a sporter.
Your pictured rifle is beautiful and master crafted. Were I in the market for such a really long range sporting rifle, I'd certainly give your rifles a lot of consideration. However, I'd go with a cartridge that's much more manageable for me. I have fired large caliber rifles from benches. I'm right up front with my not liking a lot of recoil. Recoil does cause me to flinch. The 7MM Rem Mag is the largest cartridge that I can bench shoot out of a sporting rifle without recoil becoming an issue. A man's got to know his limitations, and I know mine.
I do know of a few high mountain meadows where your rifle that's pictured above would be lights out for mule deer bucks sneaking across. One of your rifles in 7MM Rem Mag would be just the ticket for putting mule deer lights out at very long range.
But when I have to be mobile in pursuit of game, I'll grab a my 22" barreled Sako in .270 Win. From experience, when we're talking high elevation, weight is a huge concern. And where brush gets thick, for me shorter barrels are the way to go. But I can certainly see how other hunters have it figured differently.
Jay Kyle
Well-Known Member
NZ Long Ranger - that is a beautiful custom rifle.
SansSoucci - You understand what I'm talking about, a firearm fit for purpose. I see the Sheep guys all the time as they move through the foothills into the high country, and they are of the same mind.
Myself - I tend to hunt the foothills, so gentle rolling hills, lots of open country, patches of trees scattered about, and tons of game. Elk, Moose, Whitetail, Mulie - we've got it all. If you ever watched 'Unforgiven', 'Hell of Wheels', 'Open Range', etc., - that's my back yard - so a carriable long range firearm is the right fit - as I'll run across Whitetail at 50 yards just as easily as Elk at 1200 yards and further. It's doesn't have to be ultralight as we're not doing much vertical, but defnitely needs to have the Umph! for Elk at long range.
Jay
SansSoucci - You understand what I'm talking about, a firearm fit for purpose. I see the Sheep guys all the time as they move through the foothills into the high country, and they are of the same mind.
Myself - I tend to hunt the foothills, so gentle rolling hills, lots of open country, patches of trees scattered about, and tons of game. Elk, Moose, Whitetail, Mulie - we've got it all. If you ever watched 'Unforgiven', 'Hell of Wheels', 'Open Range', etc., - that's my back yard - so a carriable long range firearm is the right fit - as I'll run across Whitetail at 50 yards just as easily as Elk at 1200 yards and further. It's doesn't have to be ultralight as we're not doing much vertical, but defnitely needs to have the Umph! for Elk at long range.
Jay
Jay Kyle
Well-Known Member
You know what would be interesting is the LKRM with a 32" barrel about 4-5 lbs lighter. Carbon barrel perhaps..?
SansSouci
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay,
It sounds like you live in God's country.
I do completely understand specialized rifles. I know a few spots where one would come in handy. But for the most part, I'm usually in high timber. Hunting Rocky Mountain mule deer in late October means that the big boys are high and bedded all day. From my experience, I think they have adapted and have learned to feed at night. Therefore, if I want a shot at a good mule deer, I have to go get him. When I've seen 'em during daylight out in the open, they're always full-bore running as though another hunter spooked them out of their beds.
BTW, is it true that barrel length has no effect on accuracy? Or is it merely urban legend?
It sounds like you live in God's country.
I do completely understand specialized rifles. I know a few spots where one would come in handy. But for the most part, I'm usually in high timber. Hunting Rocky Mountain mule deer in late October means that the big boys are high and bedded all day. From my experience, I think they have adapted and have learned to feed at night. Therefore, if I want a shot at a good mule deer, I have to go get him. When I've seen 'em during daylight out in the open, they're always full-bore running as though another hunter spooked them out of their beds.
BTW, is it true that barrel length has no effect on accuracy? Or is it merely urban legend?
Jay Kyle
Well-Known Member
Barrel length has some impact on accuracy but to a lesser extent - generally the shorter the barrel the less barrel whip you have to contend with - so longer almost hurts accuracy. Length really buys you higher muzzle velocity - when I do the math in Quickload with a 338/378 I would see about 25-30 ft/second increase per inch extending from a 26" barrel to a 32" barrel - but those are rough numbers.
One of the many things that's unique about the LKRM bull-pup design is it puts the bipod out close to the end of the barrel, so you have less 'person wiggle' or shake at the muzzle than a typical rifle.
Nz longranger,
Beauty rifle. I'll bet it packs a punch. Do you build those yourself? What stock are you using?
After hunting this weekend and taking my mulie at 485 lazered yds. I decided I like a little weight to my rifles. But not over 10lbs for my mtn hunting. If I could get to 9 or 9.5 I think that would be just right.
Beauty rifle. I'll bet it packs a punch. Do you build those yourself? What stock are you using?
After hunting this weekend and taking my mulie at 485 lazered yds. I decided I like a little weight to my rifles. But not over 10lbs for my mtn hunting. If I could get to 9 or 9.5 I think that would be just right.
Jay Kyle
Well-Known Member
ok, I think I'm wrong on this - it's not the distance from the bipod to the end of the barrel that makes the difference - it's the distance from the person to the bipod that makes the difference, i.e. if the person wiggles the stock .010" it's the distance from that wiggle point to the bipod pivot that determines how much of that wiggle translates to lateral movement at target distance.
NZ Longranger
Well-Known Member
Guys,
We build all our rifles ourselves. But the point of these particular rifles in our line-up is that they can do both of what Sans and Jay are talking about. They are light and compact enough that you can carry them round the steepest mountains, or shoot something up close in the bush/woods without needing hearing protection, and we do just that. And they are capable of pulling off 1000 yard shots when the need arises. They are a jack of all trades, master of none, if you like. If you are only going to encounter one of these hunting situations, then you can specialize with either a ligher/shorter rifle, or a longer/heavier one as in Jay's case. And we build rifles for those specialist situations as well.
And Sans, you need to actually shoot one of these with the big angled port brake on it. You wouldn't believe how much it tames the recoil unless you try it. But having said that, everyone is different when it comes to handing recoil.
Here's a couple of short vids from last year, (you may have seen them before) Himalayan Tahr hunting with the 338 FX. You can see we do carry them on extended backpack trips, and into some pretty steep country. You'll also see my wife shoot her first bull tahr at 730 yards with the 338. Her one is in Spring when the snow has retreated and the bulls have mobbed up together but unfortunately they have largely lost their magnificent mane. You have to see them to believe how majestic they look high up in the mountains in full mane during the winter.
We build all our rifles ourselves. But the point of these particular rifles in our line-up is that they can do both of what Sans and Jay are talking about. They are light and compact enough that you can carry them round the steepest mountains, or shoot something up close in the bush/woods without needing hearing protection, and we do just that. And they are capable of pulling off 1000 yard shots when the need arises. They are a jack of all trades, master of none, if you like. If you are only going to encounter one of these hunting situations, then you can specialize with either a ligher/shorter rifle, or a longer/heavier one as in Jay's case. And we build rifles for those specialist situations as well.
And Sans, you need to actually shoot one of these with the big angled port brake on it. You wouldn't believe how much it tames the recoil unless you try it. But having said that, everyone is different when it comes to handing recoil.
Here's a couple of short vids from last year, (you may have seen them before) Himalayan Tahr hunting with the 338 FX. You can see we do carry them on extended backpack trips, and into some pretty steep country. You'll also see my wife shoot her first bull tahr at 730 yards with the 338. Her one is in Spring when the snow has retreated and the bulls have mobbed up together but unfortunately they have largely lost their magnificent mane. You have to see them to believe how majestic they look high up in the mountains in full mane during the winter.
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