Hammer Hunters?

[WYO300RUM]

Lat

Yes sir. I use different bullets depending on cartridge velocity and average distance.
Shot placement is considered dependent on bullet also.
I don't know of a do it all bullet but I'm sure others do.

I usually find a good combo and stick with it on different calibers. Unfortunately in two my best accuracy was with Bergers 215 in 300 RUM. I tried a load in it with RL26, ADG, FED215M and 182 HHT a few months ago. Shot a great group right off the bat. No pressure. Going to up the load. 180 HH with H1000 is great also.
In my C.A. 6.5 PRC it likes a lot of loads but stayed with RL26, ADG, FED210M and Berger 156. It's a killer I but stay off shoulder if possible.
I have a load that shoots great out of 2 different 300 WM's.
180 HH , 80.0 grs. RL26, ADG, FED215M. 3240 fps. In Vangaurd recently I shot a 4 shot group with 3 in one hole. I thought I was missing the target until 4th shot opened up. I get 2 in one hole often with that rifle. Not bad for a $10 raffle ticket
The TikkaT3X groups a little bigger but I haven't had time to work on loads for it. I shoot the same load but with 182 HHT . I had a CDS dial made for it

 

[WapitiBob]

7STW, 143 HH with Tracer Oil in the tip, 3,470 fps.
Elk and Deer. Elk walked 25 yards and fell over. Deer ran less than that. Elk shot distance was maybe 250ish, Deer was less than 100. Decent entry and nothing unusual at the exit. I don't shoot shoulders and there was no real meat loss.
I didn't see the accuracy I wanted or I would still be using them.

Deer heart

 

[Korhil78]

7STW, 143 HH with Tracer Oil in the tip, 3,470 fps.
Elk and Deer. Elk walked 25 yards and fell over. Deer ran less than that. Elk shot distance was maybe 250ish, Deer was less than 100. Decent entry and nothing unusual at the exit. I don't shoot shoulders and there was no real meat loss.
I didn't see the accuracy I wanted or I would still be using them.

Deer heart

View attachment 638840

lol if you hadn't have put deer heart on there, I was going to ask (from looking at the pic) if that is all you recovered from the deer with that launch speed.

 

[CRP003]

Case closed!
Accubonds it is!

Let us know how it goes. Good luck

Here is the heart from an elk last week with my eldm's

 

[Petey308]

Get that, I think we're in agreement just using definitions differently. I think of stability in two ways, ballistic and terminal, spinning definitely does work to keep the bullet facing forward in flight and in animal, if a petal hangs up the bullet needs enough mass and centrifical speed to over come the off center weight and drag from that petal or it goes instable and it can't hold on line.

If the bullet comes apart unevenly, spinning really fast will only exacerbate the instability that comes from that. If the shape of the bullet becomes uneven and non concentric, spinning it only induces instability further. Spinning it faster would only exacerbate that effect.

So what you want is the bullet to come apart evenly. With a bullet like a petal-shedding mono, that means the petals all form and shed together simultaneously and evenly. For a lead core, that means the jacket and lead peal back and/or shed away evenly as well. Extra centrifugal force can definitely help with that.

Shoulder stabilization within the body of the animal also helps with pieces shedding away more evenly with lead core bullets in particular, but if a copper mono or lead core start to tumble, shoulder stabilization is no longer much of a thing and whatever happens happens at that point.

 

[pickens72]

It's a Bartlein barrell 1 n 8 twist
No pictures of anything recovered as they were in the woods for four months
no muzzle velocity either so as previously stated here I'm going with the Accubonds

I'll just use the hammers on hogs down here
Thanks for all the input

How far was they from where was shot? Iv killed a ton of deer with hammers never lost one except a couple gut shot. I have had a couple not bleed but never had 1 run over 100 yds!

 

[WYO300RUM]

Last Nov. whitetail hunting. I was sitting in a stand of trees that I normally do. Average size 10 pt. Walks down main trail to my right near edge of treeline at 25 yds.. I waited until even with me and shot him in shoulder. I saw him hunch down and run but could only see him for about 5 yds. because of brush and trees. I walked over expecting to see him laying there. No deer. Followed the trail he was on. No blood. Back and forth . Nothing. I thought No way could I of missed. I kept thinking how he ducked down like hearing an arrow and ducking to run. I was ticked off that I couldn't find or missed.
I should of drove up above the river to look... I missed a monster 10 pt. near there the week before in a different spot and much longer shot. That one reared up like a horse and turned and ran back into trees. Looked all over. No blood. Even where it jumped fence. Nada. I think the bullet grazed it's chest then thinking I missed again at 25 yds ??? I went out to BLM with target when got home. Was a little high and left for whatever reason. I adjusted. Going to make this two posts so you don't loose interest...

 

[Northkill]

Think about what occurs if a bullet comes apart unevenly. It has fluids and tissues acting against it as it penetrates and moves forward through the animal. If the bullet comes apart unevenly, there will be an imbalance induced by that right away, and if there's an uneven amount of material hanging off on one side of the bullet, it will alter the path of the bullet as it gets pulled in a different direction from the opposing force.

Spinning faster creates more centrifugal force, and helps the petals open more evenly and shed more reliably. Once that occurs, it allows the remaining shank to also continue in a straight line of penetration.

If the bullet wasn't fully stable in flight, it'll impact at an angle and cause the bullet to not open evenly in most cases as well. This can occurred even if it was stable, but the nose hits bone at an angle and deforms the tip unevenly. Either occurrence typically results in the bullet not performing as designed at that point and it typically will just tumble at that point the rest of the way through the animal until it stops or exits.

Tumbling is definitely instability. What caused the tumbling isn't always from instability though, if that makes sense. Sometimes it is, like if it was unstable in flight, like I said.

Your point about angle of impact is a good one to consider. I think this is one of the unique vulnerabilities of a mono design, especially without a "significant" tip as a control and initiation factor in the impact phase where bone (hard) tissue is encountered, especially before hydraulic influence can be realized. You've addressed it further elsewhere...so I'll digress from taking more time and space for it here. Monos are just a unique breed with inherent factors that are challenging for designers to overcome when seeking to address all potentialities with a balanced result. And what constitutes failure for a hunter might be perceived slightly differently from a scientific analysis perspective, but at the end of the day, where hunting is the end use, that ends up being the jury and judge of its performance, fair or unfair.

 

[Petey308]

Your point about angle of impact is a good one to consider. I think this is one of the unique vulnerabilities of a mono design, especially without a "significant" tip as a control and initiation factor in the impact phase where bone (hard) tissue is encountered, especially before hydraulic influence can be realized. You've addressed it further elsewhere...so I'll digress from taking more time and space for it here. Monos are just a unique breed with inherent factors that are challenging for designers to overcome when seeking to address all potentialities with a balanced result. And what constitutes failure for a hunter might be perceived slightly differently from a scientific analysis perspective, but at the end of the day, where hunting is the end use, that ends up being the jury and judge of its performance, fair or unfair.

I agree, but things can be done to help out some of these inherent issues.

For example, the aluminum heat treated tip Mark uses with his Afterburners, and how it engages and interacts with the rest of the bullet, really helps with this sort of thing. Even high angle shots or when glancing bone, it digs into and drives into the bullet, along with the wedge interface, and helps ensure the petals open evenly still and the nose doesn't just sort of fold in on itself.

Polymer tips can do this too, but it needs to be the right polymer and needs to interact with the copper properly.

 

[Northkill]

I agree, but things can be done to help out some of these inherent issues.

For example, the aluminum heat treated tip Mark uses with his Afterburners, and how it engages and interacts with the rest of the bullet, really helps with this sort of thing. Even high angle shots or when glancing bone, it digs into and drives into the bullet, along with the wedge interface, and helps ensure the petals open evenly still and the nose doesn't just sort of fold in on itself.

Polymer tips can do this too, but it needs to be the right polymer and needs to interact with the copper properly.

Yes, I spoke of that in my post without getting into specifics. I've been testing Mark's designs as well.

 

[WYO300RUM]

So there I was 2 days later trying to fill a doe tag. Nada. So we went chukar and hun hunting near by. Shot a few and went back where we were deer hunting but started chasing pheasant. It had snowed pretty good the night before. I usually see pheasant were sit in trees where I shot at buck two days earlier. I walked around the treeline in the snow. I was about 30 yds from where I was sitting when shot at buck. On the left side about 25 yds there were 2 magpies on top a mound of snow. You got it... I looked with binos and thought I saw an antler tip sticking out of snow. Walked over and grabbed antlers and pulled out of snow. There was the skeleton of my buck. So he must out ducked ran 5 yds the turned left out of trees into field next to creek. 25 yds from where I shot him. The grass was 2 ft. tall at least that day before snow. No blood in that 5 yards before he turned off trail. I was mad at myself. If I'd of drove up on top above river I'd of probably seen him. I tagged him anyway. My buddy said look, there's your bullet hole. Right in lower chest. I did t even care to look for exit hole. I'm sure it did at 25 yds. Was a 182 HHT in 300 WM. Too much rifle for there but like Muddyboots said, I needed to get it wet. First kill with it or I'd of had my 6.5 PRC or Creed.
Point is, tracking can be a mofo if you don't find blood right away.
You can see the hole in chest in one photo. I think I posted in another thread.
Sorry for long 2 part post

 

[Northkill]

So there I was 2 days later trying to fill a doe tag. Nada. So we went chukar and hun hunting near by. Shot a few and went back where we were deer hunting but started chasing pheasant. It had snowed pretty good the night before. I usually see pheasant were sit in trees where I shot a buck two days earlier. I walked around the treeline in the snow. I was about 30 yds from where I was sitting when shot a buck. On the left side about 25 yds there were 2 magpies on top a mound of snow. You got it... I looked with binos and thought I saw an antler tip sticking out of snow. Walked over and grabbed antlers and pulled out of snow. There was the skeleton of my buck. So he must out ducked ran 5 yds the turned left out of trees into field next yo creek. 25 yds from where I shot him. The grass was 2 ft. tall at least that day before snow. No blood in that 5 yards before he turned off trail. I was mad at myself. If I'd of drove up on top above river I'd of probably seen him. I tagged him anyway. My buddy said look, there's your bullet hole. Right in lower chest. I did t even care to look for exit hole. I'm sure it did at 25 yds. Was a 182 HHT in 300 WM. Too much rifle for there but like Muddyboots said, I needed to get it wet. First kill with it or I'd of had my 6.5 PRC or Creed.
Point is, tracking can be a mofo if you don't find blood right away.
You can see the hole in chest in one photo. I think I posted in another thread.
Sorry for long 2 part post

Hate when that happens.

 

[bigngreen]

If the bullet comes apart unevenly, spinning really fast will only exacerbate the instability that comes from that. If the shape of the bullet becomes uneven and non concentric, spinning it only induces instability further. Spinning it faster would only exacerbate that effect.

The angular momentum will be higher with higher RPMs thus resisting the effect of some instability from the hanging Chad allowing more time to either complete the process or exit?

 

[Left Hand Dave]

I think this goes way back. New bullet maker comes out, people try it, some love it, some don't. People post about their dislikes, owner comes in and is abrasive towards the people who don't like them. People who love them defend it (maybe obnoxiously so). People who don't like them get mad about that (maybe understandably so). Now it's full on hate mode no matter what

Even the non-tipped Hammers have had their share of issues, like @adam32+P mentioned. Unfortunately, a lot of times when those results get shared, many other things get blamed rather than any potential inherent issue with the bullets.

There is an inherent issue though that sometimes gets exposed, sometimes not. The copper is indeed soft. The holes in them are pretty small in some varieties. If that opening gets compromised and closes over on itself, it tends not to open up as designed and a lot of times any good amount of wounding is a result of the bullet then tumbling. Steep angle shots can make this sort of thing occur, or glancing off of bone. It's not always from rough handling the bullets or during feeding from the mag to chamber, although those things can cause it as well.

There are ways to help keep the opening from closing in though, and that's things like filling the cavity with something with fluid dynamics that'll create a hydraulic effect of its own and won't compress and allow the tip to deform and close as easily. A good performing tip can do this too.

It's just unfortunate that many times when these discussions come up, many see it as people trying to bash on the bullet and they think people are exaggerating or making things up or being dramatic. It reality, it is indeed happening and can still happen and is worth discussing.

I agree but the smart @$$ comments followed up with little giggle faces do not appear to have constructive discussion in mind. I personally would like to see constructive discussions where we could help everyone cleanly take game and forget the biases but I suppose that is out of the question. I would really like not to feel that feeling when game is lost ever again.