Gunsmith Lathe - Grizzly or Precision Matthews

[Nevadajim]

Hello all
I have been in the gunsmithing business for 33 years and did most of my lathe work on an overhead flat belt converted 1918 South Bend 14" lathe. About 5 years ago I updated to a Summit 14x40 lathe and the only thing I will say is that you can take heavier cuts and speed everything up. I still do a lot of my work on the SB. The topic of which lathe to get is a question that might not have a good answer as you might want look at an older lathe like Monarch, South Bend or Clausing. The downside to a used lathe is that you really need to know what to look for. I don't think the PM or the Griz would be something that would not work just fine. The main point that I will make is the machine is only as good as the person running it!

 

[shortgrass]

Get into "older" American iron and it may or may not be metric capable. but, maybe metric isn;t on your 'list' of "needed". Anyone and their dog can screw on a pre-fit or use the barrel nut method to barrel an action. As mentioned already, buying 'used' you have to know what to look for and what you are looking at. As for making tools, I think I probably use the vertical mill 3-1 over the lathe, maybe more. I had 16yrs of job shop machining experience before I enrolled at MCC gunsmithing(I graduated in '93). I have continued to work in machining as well as gunsmithing, so overall , I have been machining for 47yrs. And, Nevadajim said it all when he said, "the machine is only as good as the person running it". I can make 'junk' KMA, but it sure is a please to take the handles of a 'tight' machine. The only DROs I get around is when I work with the CNCs, but I seem to be the only man in the shop comfortable with manual, so I end up there more often than not. And, as a gunsmith, I won't work on just anything, it has to be worthwhile. The "self trained" is what drove me off to a formal schooling.

 

[jrock]

I think I probably use the vertical mill 3-1 over the lathe

But we don't want the OP to think he needs a mill now do we I agree that a mill is way more handy for tool making than a lathe. When I only had a lathe, I use to put end mills in the chuck and use creative ways to make milling cuts. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.
My Bridgeport is well used and has varying degrees of backlash depending on the location. I really want a DRO on the mill because of that.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

Looking into a good GS Lathe, narrowed it down to Grizzly and Precision Matthews, 14x40 both with 2" spindle, anyone with experience with both, anything that sticks out as better over the other brand? Do you recommend the DRO? Just overall satisfaction of either units, will be used for personal builds and future builds for public. Thanks.

When we were renovating our shop the first Grizzly we bought was G0776 and it was shipped damaged. Had Grizzly replaced it with a G0824 DRO. Awesome machine! If you are getting into GS for doing your own barrels and some others for extra cash you need to think about the costs. First make sure that you can get a FFL. Some Counties have special requirements on Zoning. If you can't get a FFL don't think about building rifles. You can build your own firearms, but when working on firearms beloning to other people there are laws/regulations that you need to follow.
Then if you think a Lathe is expensive - double that for your TOOLING and instruments. If Chambering look at the cost of Reamers. Are you only going to do one barrel with a particular caliber. Your SAMI speck reamers are one cost then if you want a custom JGS Reamer how many times are you going to use it. You should also think about getting a good MILL and again TOOLING$$$.
Also experience-you don't want to make a mistake on a $500 barrel blank or a $300 custom reamer. That is one thing if it is your own barrel. Just imagine a customer giving you a barrel that they waited a year for and then couldn't be used.
I have been working on firearms since I was 11 years old (now 65). It's a great satisfaction to build something. If you are going to do it - it is best to have very good equipment & tools. Save you a lot of headaches. I was told by a old time GS many years ago. If you think that you are going to have a million dollars from GS - make sure that you already have TWO million $s to start with.
If you can find a shop going out of business or someone selling their business you may get a good deal. Good Lathes/Mills last forever if properly maintained.
We wish you all the best luck and if you need some help please reach out to members on this and other forums. Can save a lot of time and $$ from other people's experience.
PM us anytime and we can talk if you have questions.

Len & Jill

 

[bamban]

When we were renovating our shop the first Grizzly we bought was G0776 and it was shipped damaged. Had Grizzly replaced it with a G0824 DRO. Awesome machine! If you are getting into GS for doing your own barrels and some others for extra cash you need to think about the costs. First make sure that you can get a FFL. Some Counties have special requirements on Zoning. If you can't get a FFL don't think about building rifles. You can build your own firearms, but when working on firearms beloning to other people there are laws/regulations that you need to follow.
Then if you think a Lathe is expensive - double that for your TOOLING and instruments. If Chambering look at the cost of Reamers. Are you only going to do one barrel with a particular caliber. Your SAMI speck reamers are one cost then if you want a custom JGS Reamer how many times are you going to use it. You should also think about getting a good MILL and again TOOLING$$$.
Also experience-you don't want to make a mistake on a $500 barrel blank or a $300 custom reamer. That is one thing if it is your own barrel. Just imagine a customer giving you a barrel that they waited a year for and then couldn't be used.
I have been working on firearms since I was 11 years old (now 65). It's a great satisfaction to build something. If you are going to do it - it is best to have very good equipment & tools. Save you a lot of headaches. I was told by a old time GS many years ago. If you think that you are going to have a million dollars from GS - make sure that you already have TWO million $s to start with.
If you can find a shop going out of business or someone selling their business you may get a good deal. Good Lathes/Mills last forever if properly maintained.
We wish you all the best luck and if you need some help please reach out to members on this and other forums. Can save a lot of time and $$ from other people's experience.
PM us anytime and we can talk if you have questions.

Len & Jill

Spot on, Len.

I was doing a 14 barrel for a friend (no charge) I screwed it up end up buying a Krieger barrel for him.... still no charge. FYI, I am not in the business.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

The question on INSURANCE for Gunsmith Shop.

I worked the Insurance Industry for 30+ years. YES having insurance is a MUST depending on the business you have.

If you are a small shop working out of your house/property and have no employees you can forget about most of what follows. Now if you have customers coming on your property you need GL Insurance. If you have a Home Owner's policy that may be enough depending on what your policy limits are and if you HO Policy would cover if you have a Home operated business.
Next is a big one. PRODUCT LIABILITY- This is going to cover you if your build a rifle and it malfunctions and there is personnel injury. Now depending on what type of Agreement you have your customer sign off on to limit your LIABILITY.
With or without insurance your "Business" can be sued.
This is why you want a LLC "Limited Liability

An LLC, or limited liability company, is a type of business entity that a company can form by filing paperwork with the state. An LLC can have one owner (known as a "member") or many owners.

The words "limited liability" refer to the fact that LLC members cannot be held personally responsible for business debts. In a dispute with a business creditor, members may lose the money invested in the company but their personal assets aren't at risk.

LLC members also aren't usually liable for a co-owner's negligence or wrongdoing in business matters. Corporations also offer this liability protection, but sole proprietorships and partnerships do not.

As a business owner of an LLC, you're insulated from liability—to a limited extent. You and your business are not sufficiently protected without the proper insurance. on the type of business you have.

Your LLC needs at least several different insurance policies—some that your state or profession require, and others that just make good business sense. While you don't want to spend all of the company's money on insurance, not having the right policies could mean the difference between having your LLC protected and having to close your doors.

What Insurance Do States Require?

Most states require LLCs to have the following insurance:

• Workers' compensation insurance. Some states require this even if there are no employees.
• Unemployment insurance tax. If one of your employees is terminated, they will need to file for unemployment benefits.
• Disability insurance. Should one of your employees become disabled or is otherwise unable to do their job due to medical reasons, disability insurance will pay her salary, although the amount that is paid varies.

Check with your state to see if you need some or all of these insurance policies for your LLC.

What Other Insurance Should Your LLC Have?

In addition to worker's compensation, unemployment tax, and disability insurance, you should get several other insurance policies to protect your LLC.

• Professional liability insurance. Also known as malpractice insurance or errors and omissions (E&O) insurance, professional liability insurance is usually necessary for LLCs or professional limited liability companies (PLLCs), whose members are either lawyers, doctors, or other professionals required to have a license to work. Check your state's requirements to see if your profession requires you to have malpractice insurance.
• General liability insurance. Operating without liability insurance puts your LLC at risk if something happens to anyone on the premises. For example, if an injured customer sued and you didn't have liability insurance, your LLC could go out of business. The policy may also cover libel, slander, and medical and legal expenses.
• Commercial property insurance. Make sure the policy covers fire, theft, smoke, vandalism, and even flooding. You can often add natural disasters such as wind, rain, and snowstorms as covered acts.
• Business interruption insurance. You can have this as a separate policy or add it to your property insurance. If, for example, your business has to close temporarily because of damage to the premises, this insurance allows for compensation for lost earnings, rental expenses, and expenses to rebuild.
• Commercial vehicle insurance. This insurance is necessary if you have company vehicles or if your employees use their cars for business.
• Business owner's policy (BOP). This comprehensive policy can include all or some of the above insurance as a bundle, which could save you a lot of money.

What Extra Insurance Should the LLC Add?

While the LLC may not need these additional policies, you should discuss them with a business adviser or attorney:

• Product liability insurance. If the LLC has manufactured a defective product, you can insure against property damage and personal injury to others.
• Directors and officers liability. This insurance protects the company if someone sues your directors or officers for negligence. It covers the costs of a lawsuit plus any other costs you include in your policy.
• Life insurance for directors and officers. Life insurance is a good idea if the LLC is small and the loss of one member will have a major impact on the company.

Having the right insurance policies, even those that aren't required by law, can provide a much-needed safety net for your LLC. Be sure to consider all the options so that you have proper coverage.

You need to check all the LAWS pertaining to an LLC. You may need to set up different back accounts from personal money and business money to limit the Liability of being a business owner of an LLC.

 

[shortgrass]

When we were renovating our shop the first Grizzly we bought was G0776 and it was shipped damaged. Had Grizzly replaced it with a G0824 DRO. Awesome machine! If you are getting into GS for doing your own barrels and some others for extra cash you need to think about the costs. First make sure that you can get a FFL. Some Counties have special requirements on Zoning. If you can't get a FFL don't think about building rifles. You can build your own firearms, but when working on firearms beloning to other people there are laws/regulations that you need to follow.
Then if you think a Lathe is expensive - double that for your TOOLING and instruments. If Chambering look at the cost of Reamers. Are you only going to do one barrel with a particular caliber. Your SAMI speck reamers are one cost then if you want a custom JGS Reamer how many times are you going to use it. You should also think about getting a good MILL and again TOOLING$$$.
Also experience-you don't want to make a mistake on a $500 barrel blank or a $300 custom reamer. That is one thing if it is your own barrel. Just imagine a customer giving you a barrel that they waited a year for and then couldn't be used.
I have been working on firearms since I was 11 years old (now 65). It's a great satisfaction to build something. If you are going to do it - it is best to have very good equipment & tools. Save you a lot of headaches. I was told by a old time GS many years ago. If you think that you are going to have a million dollars from GS - make sure that you already have TWO million $s to start with.
If you can find a shop going out of business or someone selling their business you may get a good deal. Good Lathes/Mills last forever if properly maintained.
We wish you all the best luck and if you need some help please reach out to members on this and other forums. Can save a lot of time and $$ from other people's experience.
PM us anytime and we can talk if you have questions.

Len & Jill

But, all he wants to do is build 'pattern' type custom rifles, Used specific custom parts on every one and offer only a few popular chamberings. I can't see that 'flying', not without substantial experience and a 'glowing reputation. I've got the feeling that "gunsmithing" is below him. With what it is I think you want to do, you'll need 07 Manufactures FFL. That means you need a decent marking machine besides the lathe, so you can place the required, engraved info on your builds.

 

[shortgrass]

But we don't want the OP to think he needs a mill now do we I agree that a mill is way more handy for tool making than a lathe. When I only had a lathe, I use to put end mills in the chuck and use creative ways to make milling cuts. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.
My Bridgeport is well used and has varying degrees of backlash depending on the location. I really want a DRO on the mill because of that.

If you're gonna' be in the business, ya' gotta' have the equipment. I know that milling attachments are made for lathes,,,,,, they s&$k!!

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

But, all he wants to do is build 'pattern' type custom rifles, Used specific custom parts on every one and offer only a few popular chamberings. I can't see that 'flying', not without substantial experience and a 'glowing reputation. I've got the feeling that "gunsmithing" is below him. With what it is I think you want to do, you'll need 07 Manufactures FFL. That means you need a decent marking machine besides the lathe, so you can place the required, engraved info on your builds.

If kmccord intends on threading, chambering "gunsmithing" for the public he/she would need a"01 FFL License". This would pertain to if kmccord is doing any work "gunsmithing" on another person's firearm.
The "07 Manufacture" FFL would pertain more to if kmccord had a business where Firearms were actually being "Manufactured" or Manufactured Parts being assembled and then sold to distributers/retailers. This would not include preforming gunsmithing activities on personal firearms for the public. (this is the layman's definition)

07 Manufacturer of Firearms Other than Destructive Devices (see instruction #11)
#11 Manufacturing - Generally, persons holding a manufacturer's license (FFL Type 06, 07 or 10) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless exempted by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control (DDTC), regardless of whether the manufacturer actually exports any of the items manufactured. Therefore, applicants intending to manufacture and/or export defense articles, as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR), may need to register with Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Questions should be directed to the DDTC at 202-663-2980 or www.pmddtc.state.gov.

01 Dealer in Firearms Other than Destructive Devices (Includes: rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, gunsmith activities, and 01 National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons) (see instruction #10)
If kmccord applied for a FFL it would be for 01 FFL since "Gunsmith Activities" would include chambering, threading, assembling, repair. modification, even cerakoting.
#10. National Firearms Act (NFA)/Special Occupational Tax (SOT) - Applicants intending to deal in, import, or manufacture weapons subject to the NFA (e.g., machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, silencers, destructive devices, etc.) are required to pay a SOT (see definition #18). Contact the NFA Branch at (304) 616-4500.

I have had this discussion, in depth, with an AFT Agent here in GA.

 

[shortgrass]

If kmccord intends on threading, chambering "gunsmithing" for the public he/she would need a"01 FFL License". This would pertain to if kmccord is doing any work "gunsmithing" on another person's firearm.
The "07 Manufacture" FFL would pertain more to if kmccord had a business where Firearms were actually being "Manufactured" or Manufactured Parts being assembled and then sold to distributers/retailers. This would not include preforming gunsmithing activities on personal firearms for the public. (this is the layman's definition)

07 Manufacturer of Firearms Other than Destructive Devices (see instruction #11)
#11 Manufacturing - Generally, persons holding a manufacturer's license (FFL Type 06, 07 or 10) must register as a manufacturer with the Department of State unless exempted by the Directorate of Defense Trade Control (DDTC), regardless of whether the manufacturer actually exports any of the items manufactured. Therefore, applicants intending to manufacture and/or export defense articles, as defined on the United States Munitions List (Part 121 of the ITAR), may need to register with Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC). Questions should be directed to the DDTC at 202-663-2980 or www.pmddtc.state.gov.

01 Dealer in Firearms Other than Destructive Devices (Includes: rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, gunsmith activities, and 01 National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons) (see instruction #10)
If kmccord applied for a FFL it would be for 01 FFL since "Gunsmith Activities" would include chambering, threading, assembling, repair. modification, even cerakoting.
#10. National Firearms Act (NFA)/Special Occupational Tax (SOT) - Applicants intending to deal in, import, or manufacture weapons subject to the NFA (e.g., machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, silencers, destructive devices, etc.) are required to pay a SOT (see definition #18). Contact the NFA Branch at (304) 616-4500.

I have had this discussion, in depth, with an AFT Agent here in GA.

Ya', I know the difference. I've held a 07 for almost 9yrs, now,,,,, a 01 for gunsmithing, where the customer supplied the receiver or the sale of the receiver was a separate transaction, before that. If you want to build rifles, supplying all the components including the receiver, and then offer it for sale on speculation, the 07 is required. My understanding is, that is his intention,,,, to be "another" (Ryan) Pierce Firearms/Gunworks/GA Precision/McWorther Rifles type business. It becomes quit a hinderance to transfer a receiver to a client, who is States away, and then have the client send the receiver back to the builder. That alone would shut-down a lot of business. If you're taking already manufactured parts (like receivers, installing the barrel, putting that in a stock and offering the complete rifle for sale to anyone, distributor/retailer/or the general public, you are "Manufacturing" a firearm. Trump did away with DDTC registration by transferring export responsibility to the Dept. of Commerce. You don't have to deal with them (Dept. of Commerce) until if and when you want to export a firearm or firearms. NFA is still required to register with DDTC. I've got the 'skinny' on it, I passed my last inspection with 'flying colors', and the inspectors saying , "I wish all inspections were this easy". Re-read his first few posts! He doesn't want or intend to "gunsmith". He wants to build custom rifles in a "cookie cutter" fashion. You can still preform gunsmith activities or sell a few firearms if you hold a 07 License.

 

[Coyote Shadow Tracker]

Ya', I know the difference. I've held a 07 for almost 9yrs, now,,,,, a 01 for gunsmithing, where the customer supplied the receiver or the sale of the receiver was a separate transaction, before that. If you want to build rifles, supplying all the components including the receiver, and then offer it for sale on speculation, the 07 is required. My understand is that is his intention,,,, to be "another" Pierce Firearms/Gunworks/GA Precision/McWorther Rifles type business. It becomes quit a hinderance to transfer a receiver to a client, who is States away, and then have the client send the receiver back to the builder. Re-read his first few posts!

SORRY
Merry Christmas!

 

[tobnpr]

There's not a reason in the world I can think of for a smith to get an 01 instead of an 07 (which is what I did).
Why not just leave your options open? You can build/sell "spec" rifles, get an 02 SOT and build/sell suppressors and play with machine guns.

 

[adam32+P]

There's not a reason in the world I can think of for a smith to get an 01 instead of an 07 (which is what I did).
Why not just leave your options open? You can build/sell "spec" rifles, get an 02 SOT and build/sell suppressors and play with machine guns.

Well, for smiths in CA...an 07 in basically impossible to get...so an 01 is the only other option. From what I've been told recently.

 

[Kmccord]

But, all he wants to do is build 'pattern' type custom rifles, Used specific custom parts on every one and offer only a few popular chamberings. I can't see that 'flying', not without substantial experience and a 'glowing reputation. I've got the feeling that "gunsmithing" is below him. With what it is I think you want to do, you'll need 07 Manufactures FFL. That means you need a decent marking machine besides the lathe, so you can place the required, engraved info on your builds.

It may not work what I want to do, but never know unless I try, as for Gunsmithing is below him, nah, it is not that, I just want to do a specific item and build rifles. As for the engraving machine, yes I had already thought about that as well. There is a lot of things I need to figure out, I definitely am not expecting to be a Ryan Pierce or McWhorter next year, it takes a lot of time and experience to get there and I am definitely willing to put in the work to get there.