Great discussion.

[Huntnful]

But I'd absolutely say that if you're going to make a poor shot, the bigger the better. The point he's making, is people shoot better with smaller cartridges/bullets. And a good shot from a smaller bullet, that still has a terminally effective wound channel, is better than a poor shot with a rifle with a 3" wider wound channel.

There's no argument that an 8" wound channel has the POTENTIAL to kill faster than a 4" wound channel. But there are endless comparisons that prove that different as well. For example, bulls getting shot with arrows and dying in seconds, and bulls getting shot 3 times with big magnums before they finally topple over.

 

[E4aker]

But I'd absolutely say that if you're going to make a poor shot, the bigger the better. The point he's making, is people shoot better with smaller cartridges/bullets. And a good shot from a smaller bullet, that still has a terminally effective wound channel, is better than a poor shot with a rifle with a 3" wider wound channel.

There's no argument that an 8" wound channel has the POTENTIAL to kill faster than a 4" wound channel. But there are endless comparisons that prove that different as well. For example, bulls getting shot with arrows and dying in seconds, and bulls getting shot 3 times with big magnums before they finally topple over.

I've killed well over 100 big game animals with a bow….they kill completely different than a rifle.

Most of the misses and bad wounding shots with a rifle never get admitted or talked about on the forums if I had to guess.

 

[Huntnful]

I've killed well over 100 big game animals with a bow….they kill completely different than a rifle.

Most of the misses and bad wounding shots with a rifle never get admitted or talked about on the forums if I had to guess.

Do you believe they actually kill different, or do they elicit a different reaction because they are quieter and less abrupt on impact, not spiking the animals adrenaline?

I personally don't think they kill differently. They damage the lungs (much less than a bullet) and the animal suffocates. Obviously just my opinion. Have not killed anywhere near 100 animals with a bow, but I don't see them doing anything special. 3 razor blades in, three razor blades out, and 3 slices through the lungs. All my well placed arrows have killed the animals in literal seconds. It is insane to see first hand.

 

[E4aker]

A broadhead kills by a single laceration that causes severe hemorrhaging to whatever vascular anatomy it touches. If the broadhead doesn't touch it, then it's not damaged.

A bullet will cause shock to the areas around the wound. A high shoulder shot on a deer with a magnum rifle and his belly will hit the dirt before his legs. The same shot with a bow might get you a couple inches of penetration and you won't find him.

i also feel like the wound from a surgical sharp blade, bleeds more then a crushing type injury.

I worked as a paramedic for 20 years…I've seen fingers cut off with a miter saw that barely bled. Also seen a finger cut mostly off with a carpet knife that almost killed the guy from blood loss.

The same with gunshot wounds by stab wounds to the chest.

 

[Darryle]

A smashed finger doesn't bleed near as much as a cleanly sliced finger, a fact I learned the hard way.

Index cut by a Muzzy, middle finger smashed almost off between a piece of railroad iron and a Woods offset plow frame. Still cannot feel the tip of the middle finger. Required surgery and a couple of pins to fix correctly, the index finger took twice as many stitches to close and stop the bleeding, index healed faster.

Stupid games win stupid prizes

 

[E4aker]

A smashed finger doesn't bleed near as much as a cleanly sliced finger, a fact I learned the hard way.

Index cut by a Muzzy, middle finger smashed almost off between a piece of railroad iron and a Woods offset plow frame. Still cannot feel the tip of the middle finger. Required surgery and a couple of pins to fix correctly, the index finger took twice as many stitches to close and stop the bleeding, index healed faster.

Stupid games win stupid prizes

View attachment 581218

Exactly

 

[Huntnful]

A broadhead kills by a single laceration that causes severe hemorrhaging to whatever vascular anatomy it touches. If the broadhead doesn't touch it, then it's not damaged.

A bullet will cause shock to the areas around the wound. A high shoulder shot on a deer with a magnum rifle and his belly will hit the dirt before his legs. The same shot with a bow might get you a couple inches of penetration and you won't find him.

i also feel like the wound from a surgical sharp blade, bleeds more then a crushing type injury.

I worked as a paramedic for 20 years…I've seen fingers cut off with a miter saw that barely bled. Also seen a finger cut mostly off with a carpet knife that almost killed the guy from blood loss.

The same with gunshot wounds by stab wounds to the chest.

Okay so we're pretty much on the same page. That's the point I was making. A bullet damages a much larger area than an arrow, albeit a different type of damage. The damage is still MASSIVE in comparison. The animals still mostly fall from lack of oxygen/blood pressure first, not actually bleeding to death. Also just my opinion.

I just don't fully agree with the thought that you need a cannon to kill an elk with a rifle, when a 3 blade broadhead, causes much less overall damage, and kills them just as fast, if not faster in some circumstances.

 

[Huntnful]

I definitely understand the slice vs. smash comparison. But a bullet isn't smashing anything closed. It's grenading it open.

 

[Huntnful]

Broadhead

Frangible Bullet

Now, there is no reason why the broadhead would kill faster, but it does sometimes. Just the point is that they resulted in the exact same outcome. A dead animal, fast. That's a 7mm bullet on the heart, but a 6mm really doesn't do a whole lot less damage.

 

[E4aker]

Agree to disagree….

As a full time rifle builder I like building small rifles for people. They typically shoot them better.

If you talk with people who live in elk country and kill lots of elk every year, you will get better data then what you will hear from someone on a podcast or see on a ballistic gel test on YouTube

On internet only the 1/4moa groups get shown and the wounded elk a lot of times are chalked up as a miss and not talked about.

 

[Huntnful]

Agree to disagree….

As a full time rifle builder I like building small rifles for people. They typically shoot them better.

If you talk with people who live in elk country and kill lots of elk every year, you will get better data then what you will hear from someone on a podcast or see on a ballistic gel test on YouTube

On internet only the 1/4moa groups get shown and the wounded elk a lot of times are chalked up as a miss and not talked about.

Fair enough

I will say, that if you listen to the second part, him and his friends do cull elk, in large quantities, and document the wound channels with photos for everyone to see and all that jazz. Maybe he's sweeping the rodeos under the carpet, but he doesn't seem to mind sharing when a bullet performs poorly, or a hit is poor and stuff like that.

I'm only maybe 40 big game animals in. 10 with a bow and the rest with a rifle. But I have never had an issue with a properly placed bullet of any size, or an arrow. "Well placed" of course being the caveat.

Walking out the door on the hunt of a life time elk hunt, and I have a big 7mm and big 6mm, both pushing a big ELDM at the same speed. I'm grabbing the 7mm. But in my heart, I know if I put the 6mm in the same exact lung shot as the 7mm, the results are much more likely to be the same, than different.

 

[Lou270]

I have been in debates with that guy a few times on rokslide on various topics. While I have no doubt he shoots a bunch of gel for his job I am very skeptical of some of the "experience" claims. I would not really say anything about it but it is used in podcast to justify the theories presented and add doubt to counter opinions. Anybody that throws around hundreds or thousands of animal kills to "back up" their claims raises my BS meter and once it's up I start to doubt other things. The guys truly with significant experience/data that is easy to authenticate (ie african ph, experienced guides, bullet man for ex) on a lot of big game favor bullets and cartridges that this fellow likes to poopoo. There are a lot more of them and they are easy to authenticate vs a mysterious goverment agent man. And some of the ph do a lot of culling with small calibers as well so are not limited in their experience. That is not big game hunting. So I personally take the I shot hundreds of animals to get my large sample size with bunches of bullets to justify my opinion with a grain of salt. Or, at least, why would I believe one outlier expert who claims experience with zero credibility when there are literally tons of other "experts" in plain sight including the bullet manufacturers. I guess the cloak and daggerness adds some credibility for some folks

Lou

 

[Huntnful]

I have been in debates with that guy a few times on rokslide on various topics. While I have no doubt he shoots a bunch of gel for his job I am very skeptical of some of the "experience" claims. I would not really say anything about it but it is used in podcast to justify the theories presented and add doubt to counter opinions. Anybody that throws around hundreds or thousands of animal kills to "back up" their claims raises my BS meter and once it's up I start to doubt other things. The guys truly with significant experience/data that is easy to authenticate (ie african ph, experienced guides, bullet man for ex) on a lot of big game favor bullets and cartridges that this fellow likes to poopoo. There are a lot more of them and they are easy to authenticate vs a mysterious goverment agent man. And some of the ph do a lot of culling with small calibers as well so are not limited in their experience. That is not big game hunting. So I personally take the I shot hundreds of animals to get my large sample size with bunches of bullets to justify my opinion with a grain of salt. Or, at least, why would I believe one outlier expert who claims experience with zero credibility when there are literally tons of other "experts" in plain sight including the bullet manufacturers. I guess the cloak and daggerness adds some credibility for some folks

Lou

I can see your viewpoint as well Lou!

I don't just blindly believe people either. Actually quite the opposite. I distrust people a lot lol.

But I was intrigued enough to do some testing. And so far, all of my heavy for caliber ELDM and Berger kills have performed exactly how he's described, and VERY similar to seen in ballistics gel. I also have the photos and videos for most of them to prove it.

I just don't think what he's saying is very controversial. A small, heavy for caliber, frangible bullet, with a 2000fps impact velocity, creates a wound channel large enough to kill anything in North America. That is absolutely true, and have been proven.

Now it's totally a personal choice, on how small is too small for someone to feel comfortable, and how small is too small to have no error of forgiveness in shot placement in comparison to your hunting style and ranges.

I like the ability to shoot relatively long ranges if that's the only opportunity, so I'm sticking with the big 7mm's for my back country hunts. Great BC for bucking wind, decently large wound channel for some shot placement forgiveness with a bad wind call, and still pretty marginal recoil.


But I also took my 6mm for a ranch style hunt where I knew getting to 5-600 yards wouldn't be a problem. The 6mm killed no differently than the 7mm. Dead in 5 yards.

 

[E4aker]

I can see your viewpoint as well Lou!

I don't just blindly believe people either. Actually quite the opposite. I distrust people a lot lol.

But I was intrigued enough to do some testing. And so far, all of my heavy for caliber ELDM and Berger kills have performed exactly how he's described, and VERY similar to seen in ballistics gel. I also have the photos and videos for most of them to prove it.

I just don't think what he's saying is very controversial. A small, heavy for caliber, frangible bullet, with a 2000fps impact velocity, creates a wound channel large enough to kill anything in North America. That is absolutely true, and have been proven.

Now it's totally a personal choice, on how small is too small for someone to feel comfortable, and how small is too small to have no error of forgiveness in shot placement in comparison to your hunting style and ranges.

I like the ability to shoot relatively long ranges if that's the only opportunity, so I'm sticking with the big 7mm's for my back country hunts. Great BC for bucking wind, decently large wound channel for some shot placement forgiveness with a bad wind call, and still pretty marginal recoil.


But I also took my 6mm for a ranch style hunt where I knew getting to 5-600 yards wouldn't be a problem. The 6mm killed no differently than the 7mm. Dead in 5 yards.

Are you talking bull elk with a 6mm or antelope?

I watched a bull moose take 3 slugs from a 338 lapua imp last season and still make it 60 yards. I'd sure hate to have substituted those .338s for 6mms. No pass through from any of the slugs. (270eldx) According to the podcast it should have blown limbs off! lol