Giving out Load Advice caution!

[Tex_Hunter]

I'm welding up a receiver hitch for my travel trailer so I can double pull a small atv trailer behind it -- here are a few suggestions for trailer hitches (not like Im looking for though)


just because someone did it and posted it on the net doesnt make it a smart idea to duplicate it if you have 1/2 a brain

This is just being willfully disingenuous... if dangerous load data (I will add that this is fueled by people continually discussing how "hot" their pet loads are) was as obviously dangerous as that trailer strung off the back of that S10 then people wouldn't feel compelled to create threads like this, but people all too often state loads that are way over book on charge weight and velocity but then say "not a single sign of pressure" except for the fact that velocity is one of the single most accurate measures of pressure and there are multiple articles/papers written discussing that by the time pressure signs show up on your brass and primers, you are already WAY over published maximums.

Regardless, a rifle loaded to 20k+ PSI over acceptable maximums isn't necessarily going to blow up in your face the first time you drop the hammer on it (it might not even do it on the 100th time)... the problem is you are repeatedly stressing the system beyond what it was designed to reliably function at, and you are taking away any margin for error should you get a bad case that splits or some other unforeseen failure.

 

[cohunt]

This is just being willfully disingenuous... if dangerous load data (I will add that this is fueled by people continually discussing how "hot" their pet loads are) was as obviously dangerous as that trailer strung off the back of that S10 then people wouldn't feel compelled to create threads like this, but people all too often state loads that are way over book on charge weight and velocity but then say "not a single sign of pressure" except for the fact that velocity is one of the single most accurate measures of pressure and there are multiple articles/papers written discussing that by the time pressure signs show up on your brass and primers, you are already WAY over published maximums.

Regardless, a rifle loaded to 20k+ PSI over acceptable maximums isn't necessarily going to blow up in your face the first time you drop the hammer on it (it might not even do it on the 100th time)... the problem is you are repeatedly stressing the system beyond what it was designed to reliably function at, and you are taking away any margin for error should you get a bad case that splits or some other unforeseen failure.

but come on, he has "safety chains" on the tail gate and the hitch is rated for pulling that trailer safely ----if I guy is taking load data from online forums and never even looking at the reload book max data then darwin is right around the corner, just like the trailer on the tail gate pic--- "hold me beer, ya'll watch this!!"

 

[Tex_Hunter]

but come on, he has "safety chains" on the tail gate and the hitch is rated for pulling that trailer safely ----if I guy is taking load data from online forums and never even looking at the reload book max data then darwin is right around the corner, just like the trailer on the tail gate pic--- "hold me beer, ya'll watch this!!"

LOL... I guess I'll give you that. Honestly, judging by all the people you see on the road who seem to think that being able to get a given load/trailer rolling is the only relevant criteria in towing capacity, driving around with the hitch scraping the ground and headlights pointed into outer space, maybe common sense really isn't as common as any of us would like to believe.

 

[Frog4aday]

Frog4aday, You are spot on. I saw this on another post here on this very forum just a couple of days ago. Some fellow recommends what is obviously a seriously over pressure load, fully 250 fps above published max and to be shot out of a lever gun in 300 Savage. When I brace him about what he was recommending to the OP he then says it is with a 26" barrel and he is at 7000 feet elevation. When I point out that 2" of barrel doesn't add 250 fps and that elevation has absolutely zero to do with muzzle velocity and pressure he gets really Poed and starts in on the personal insults and attacks. To me that is proof positive that even on a forum of this caliber there are no shortage of idiots who either post stuff they know nothing about, or are completely clueless as to how dangerous what they are doing actually is.

BINGO! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Someone posts something absurd. They get called out on it being absurd. They reply with some 'justification' that usually doesn't make any sense. Then YOU get attacked for trying to point out to others reading the post, "DON'T TRUST THIS LOAD DATA!"

You will never convince "that guy" of anything, but I'm hopeful that the majority of people who read your warning got the message and realize loading any cartridge 250 fps beyond its designed pressure parameters isn't a safe move.

 

[Frog4aday]

<SNIPPED STUFF>...people all too often state loads that are way over book on charge weight and velocity but then say "not a single sign of pressure" except for the fact that velocity is one of the single most accurate measures of pressure and there are multiple articles/papers written discussing that by the time pressure signs show up on your brass and primers, you are already WAY over published maximums. <SNIPPED STUFF>

You said it all right there. VELOCITY is a sign of PRESSURE. If the book shows a MAXIMUM load of IMR-4064 will produce a velocity of 3,000 fps in a 24" test barrel, with the bullet weight you are using, and you find you are getting 3,200 fps from your 22" factory rifle barrel, you are over-pressure. I don't really care what your primer looks like, how easy the bolt lifted, or what the 'web' of the case measured pre and post firing. That velocity IS the sign of too much pressure.

As you pointed out, the gun may not have blown up, but that doesn't mean what is being done to it is 'safe'. When people 'work up to pressure signs' do they really understand that they may be hitting 70,000 to 80,000 psi, which is nearly a "proof" load? That's not the way it's done. But you can't convince people. They all think the "books are way too conservative" and that their load going 150 fps faster than the book showed (with that same powder and bullet) makes them some kind of reloading wunderkind. Maybe they are. Maybe they are not. But unless they got some strain gauges, properly attached them to the barrel, and did their own SCIENTIFICALLY established testing, they don't know anything other than, 'Well, the primer looked fine.'

 

[LVJ76]

LOL... I guess I'll give you that. Honestly, judging by all the people you see on the road who seem to think that being able to get a given load/trailer rolling is the only relevant criteria in towing capacity, driving around with the hitch scraping the ground and headlights pointed into outer space, maybe common sense really isn't as common as any of us would like to believe.

My wife and I called it "Uncommon Sense" they're aint nothing common about it.

 

[codyadams]

Confirmed.

The oldest I have is the Lee manual for Hodgdon powders from 1993.

The pressure is in CUP.

It shows 2949 fps with 175 grainers using H1000 in a 7 RM at 55000 CUP.

The new Hodgdon data says the max load with H1000 is 2692 fps at 50400 CUP.

For the cartridge I was talking about in my original post on this thread, the new load data from Hodgdon shows 3 fps higher.

Ya, it of course isn't a blanket assessment, I was just blown away at how ridiculously diluted they make the 7 mag, and don't fully understand why they would, they even show it being 10,000 psi or so under max.....I just find it interesting.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

My wife and I called it "Uncommon Sense" they're aint nothing common about it.

View attachment 193573

Well said LV.

I tell people all the time "I am not a highly educated man, but I do have a PHD in Common Sense!"

 

[Randy Tidwell]

Hopefully you will p.m. that poster to let them know as you possibly (probably) have more experience than they do and they may be unintentionally over loading or not realize the possibility of catostrophic failure.
Thanks for the insight.

Manitou1, I have done that a couple of times, usually ends in a peeing match.

I used to visit CalGuns a lot when I lived in CA, got into it one time with a guy that was warning everyone that neck sizing will blow up you gun. Huh? He even posted a video of supposedly his friend that was some kind of championship LR shooter. The video was making the statement "Never neck size your cases, it WILL blow up your gun!"

Well, I have been neck sizing for 50+ years, ain't blown one up yet.

When I POLITELY pointed out that neck sizing alone will not blow a gun, something else was wrong, OMG! Childish comments like "Well my buddy can out shoot you any day of the week and twice on Sunday, he knows what he is talking about!" Thought I was back in the third grade.

So when I see something like the other post that prompted me to make my original post, doing something like this is the course I take.

I am surprised this thread got this much attention, Very pleased how it has gone, no peeing matches.

Everyone have a great weekend, hope you get to go shooting. Me, firing up the smoker for brisket with some friends Saturday.

 

[Ted C]

First, the following is not intended as an attack on anyone either stated or implied. My only intention is to respectfully suggest to all posters to think about the ramifications of what they are posting.

In a recent post, there was load data that was shared to the OP that was considerably hotter than accepted/published loads. I think I put a permanent crease in the seat of my office chair. I took the time this morning and looked thru a number of both new and old manuals for a load that hot, couldn't find it listed anywhere. I shoot an improved version of that round and don't even load it that hot.

Here are my thoughts; we should all be very careful sharing loads that are not published by the manufactures for a number of reasons.

You never know the condition of the rifle that the load might find its way into.

You don't know the experience of the individual that might try it.

Individual components i.e. cases, primers and bullets all have an effect on pressure. Simple change of a bullet or primer on a hot load could be devastating.

Back in the day (I'm dating myself now), we played with a lot of crazy loads trying to find that sweet spot. I won't even hint on this open forum what we were doing because someone might decide to try it themselves without the foundation and knowledge to do it correctly. Many shooters wanted me to share what we were doing. Always told them I could not because of the liability was something that I was not willing to risk. I even got accused of being a jerk for not sharing, wasn't being a jerk, just being safe.

Thankfully, with the current wide variety of components available to us today, there is no need to do that anymore. Well, I still do it for my BR rigs

In the 70's and early 80's, I had the privilege of managing a small chain of hunting and fishing stores (3 stores) in California. It was store policy that no employee was allowed to quote load data. If a customer wanted load information, the employee was required to grab a published load manual, look it up and show the customer. This removed any and all liability to the company, and it was just plan safe. Any deviation from that were grounds for immediate dismissal.

There was a well know shop in So Cal that was put out of business after an employee gave a customer bad loading advice. The resulting law suit after the gun blew up (Super Blackhawk) and the shooter badly injured forced the store to close the doors, sad.

So again, this is NOT an attack. Only respectfully suggesting caution when giving advice or sharing load data.

First and foremost, we don't want to see anyone get hurt. Second, in today's crazy sue happy world, none of us need to expose ourselves to the possible liability. Bad advice could even drag LRH into a lawsuit. Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim. Put the possibility of getting drug into one that would cost a lot of money to defend is there.

Everyone be well and safe.

PS. It is sad that in today's world we need to think "can I get sued for this?"

Well said sir. I always add the tag line what MY rifle likes and then say what my rifle liked. It is sad that we have to tip toe around nowadays, but in this case, safety should be first.

 

[sodakota]

The Op is right on. If asked about a load I like, I will mention the bullet and powder, sometimes the brass and primer. But I won't normally mention the amount of powder, unless I can quote a reloading manual.

 

[Will Gray]

Good thread...

 

[Buzzsaw]

ok, I admit it, I'm a "pet load" troll. Here's why. First , I've been handloading for 50 years. back when the .222 was VERY relevant. I get how it works.

I am NOT a believer of exhausting , barret burning "Ladder tests" They are a waste of time, components , brain cells. For the young guys, (I'm 68) But if someone wants to do this *** whipping exercise, by all means do it. This is Just my opinion.

If you start with QUALITY, equipment, should be no problems.

what I ask for, is "your" pet load. You are just saving me couple hundred rounds splitting hairs. From your load, I will check it against published data. If "safe" I'll try it.

Most popular calibers RE: all the Creedmoors are pretty much the same in grain weight. If your trying to make your 6.5 Creedmoor shoot like a 6.5 PRC, BUILD A 6.5 PRC !!!!!!

I just like to find a .50 MOA , consistent, load. I guess I am lucky to have custom built rifles, custom Barrels, (Proof Carbon) now. Makes this task much easier

back to the OP, please provide me your "PET" loads for your 8 twist 6.5 Creed and, 8 Twist .223. bullet choice and OAL. yes, I know where my lands starts for each bullet.

Ha Ha, just noticed how the world goes round. I've had several rifles built. Now I'm back to the basics.

SEND ME YOUR PET LOADS .....................please

 

[Gunship Guy]

Excellent thread/discussion. Bottom line: Safety first and always