Giving out Load Advice caution!

[Varmint Hunter]

What I have noticed on several occasions is that well-meaning posters provide reloading data (or pet loads) from memory as they bang away on their key board or cell phone, only to later realize that they posted erroneous information. Subsequent postings, by the same poster, occasionally correct their errors when they realize the mistake.
The internet can be a valuable resource of data using the latest powders, bullets, etc; but it must always be approached with due caution.

 

[CMP70306]

22 Creedmoor Load Data

Since its’ inception, in 2007 by Hornady, the 6.5 Creedmoor has seen some pretty meteoric growth in popularity. That growth continues as of this writing, as the cartridge has now gone mainstream with hunters and shooters alike. As the popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor has increased, so has the...

www.petersoncartridge.com

I feel this article is relevant to the current discussion.

 

[Muddyboots]

Load data is like sharing an injection of a drug that was prescribed specifically for someone else based upon their disease, physiology, mass etc. If you can wrap your head around how wrong that is you should be able to wrap your head around using someone else's load data that was worked up for a specific rifle under specific conditions is probably dangerous as well. If not, well you may be cited in the annual Darwinism Awards and truly do not understand very basic personal safety reloading principles and probably shouldn't be reloading at all.

 

[manitou]

First, the following is not intended as an attack on anyone either stated or implied. My only intention is to respectfully suggest to all posters to think about the ramifications of what they are posting.

In a recent post, there was load data that was shared to the OP that was considerably hotter than accepted/published loads. I think I put a permanent crease in the seat of my office chair. I took the time this morning and looked thru a number of both new and old manuals for a load that hot, couldn't find it listed anywhere. I shoot an improved version of that round and don't even load it that hot.

Here are my thoughts; we should all be very careful sharing loads that are not published by the manufactures for a number of reasons.

You never know the condition of the rifle that the load might find its way into.

You don't know the experience of the individual that might try it.

Individual components i.e. cases, primers and bullets all have an effect on pressure. Simple change of a bullet or primer on a hot load could be devastating.

Back in the day (I'm dating myself now), we played with a lot of crazy loads trying to find that sweet spot. I won't even hint on this open forum what we were doing because someone might decide to try it themselves without the foundation and knowledge to do it correctly. Many shooters wanted me to share what we were doing. Always told them I could not because of the liability was something that I was not willing to risk. I even got accused of being a jerk for not sharing, wasn't being a jerk, just being safe.

Thankfully, with the current wide variety of components available to us today, there is no need to do that anymore. Well, I still do it for my BR rigs

In the 70's and early 80's, I had the privilege of managing a small chain of hunting and fishing stores (3 stores) in California. It was store policy that no employee was allowed to quote load data. If a customer wanted load information, the employee was required to grab a published load manual, look it up and show the customer. This removed any and all liability to the company, and it was just plan safe. Any deviation from that were grounds for immediate dismissal.

There was a well know shop in So Cal that was put out of business after an employee gave a customer bad loading advice. The resulting law suit after the gun blew up (Super Blackhawk) and the shooter badly injured forced the store to close the doors, sad.

So again, this is NOT an attack. Only respectfully suggesting caution when giving advice or sharing load data.

First and foremost, we don't want to see anyone get hurt. Second, in today's crazy sue happy world, none of us need to expose ourselves to the possible liability. Bad advice could even drag LRH into a lawsuit. Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim. Put the possibility of getting drug into one that would cost a lot of money to defend is there.

Everyone be well and safe.

PS. It is sad that in today's world we need to think "can I get sued for this?"

Hopefully you will p.m. that poster to let them know as you possibly (probably) have more experience than they do and they may be unintentionally over loading or not realize the possibility of catostrophic failure.
Thanks for the insight.

 

[CTK]

As an owner of a 6.5x47L I pay attention to loads that I see posted. This cartridge hides pressure signs. I have been guilty of feeling better about loading the x47 hotter than book due to the massive amount of forum and article hot load data out there. I only have myself to blame if there is an issue. I do see the point of not posting hot loads. A novice reloader may take info as safe due to the vast number of experts that are on these sites. Good reminder post.

 

[Randy Tidwell]

Cohunt, it was Grant Boys in Anheim. The hole thing was settled out of court and kept very quiet. I managed Andrew's at Knott & Ball, later became Roubens, then Turners.

The inside story we were told is a kid sold the SB and told the buyer it was the strongest handgun ever made and his buddy just fills the case with Bullseye

 

[Randy Tidwell]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Love these civil discussions.

 

[Tex_Hunter]

Very good statement. Reloaders, both newbies and old hands, should take this seriously. People are inclined to take short cuts, rather than work up a load to fit their rifle.

You just hit on the reason for probably 99.9% of the "Looking for load data using X projectile and Y powder... anyone got any suggestions?" threads we see on here.

Most of those threads are just people too lazy/cheap to get resources and inform themselves and looking to the forum to do the work for them, worst case though is they are way out of their realm of experience or comfort and will likely do something stupid. Either way, I try and avoid those types of discussions.

I'll happily list powders that I'd recommend in a given cartridge/bullet combo if someone asks, but I'd never share data on a load that exceeds book "Max" loaded.

Completely agree with the OP here as well as the others who have responded... its not about getting sued, its about not being irresponsible and potentially putting someone else in harms way.

 

[Dean2]

I will generally suggest how to select the powder and other components to start load development, I will even say which powders I have found that work best in certain cartridges with certain bullets. To post the actual load would be of absolutely no use generally. That said, there are ca few universal loads that shoot in almost any gun. Best example is 12.6 grains of Lil'Gun, Fed Small pistol primer and a 40 grain Vmax in WW brass in the 22 Hornet. If your gun won't shoot that load under an inch, there is something wrong with your gun. That said, this load is half way between suggested min 12.0 grains and max load of 13.0 grains.

This is an example of what I think useful information for people looking to develop loads, looks like.

Maybe this will help. Rather than asking for recipes there are some basic rules to picking the most likely loads for any gun. Pick the three powders with the highest velocity for the bullet weight and type you want to shoot, then look for the one with the lowest pressure at the min and maximum loads. Start with that powder and work up in . 5 increments till you start to see the very beginning of pressure signs or you reach max published load or the published max velocity, whichever you reach first. Stop there and back off .5 grains. Now play with COAL till you get the very best group possible. Now drop powder .2 grain at a time till you find the tightest groups and try to find a spot in that node where you can move the powder at least .7 either way without affecting your groups very much.

So for a 280 AI with 162 grain bullets, according to Hodgdon load data the three powders are IMR 4831, 7828 SSC and Hybrid 100V. Based on the lowest starting pressure and the lowest or nearly so max load pressure with the highest published velocity, I would start load development with the Hybrid 100V. This is a powder that is not commonly used but I have had excellent results from it in a number of different Cartridges. My bet is you will find a great shooting load.

Most 7mm work best with 140 to 165 grain bullets and the Hybrid 100V is also the best fit for those criteria on the 140 grain bullet and the 175 grain bullets so it shows this is a well matched powder throughout the normal bullet weight range for that cartridge.

 

[cohunt]

I'm welding up a receiver hitch for my travel trailer so I can double pull a small atv trailer behind it -- here are a few suggestions for trailer hitches (not like Im looking for though)

just because someone did it and posted it on the net doesnt make it a smart idea to duplicate it if you have 1/2 a brain

 

[LVJ76]

First, the following is not intended as an attack on anyone either stated or implied. My only intention is to respectfully suggest to all posters to think about the ramifications of what they are posting.

In a recent post, there was load data that was shared to the OP that was considerably hotter than accepted/published loads. I think I put a permanent crease in the seat of my office chair. I took the time this morning and looked thru a number of both new and old manuals for a load that hot, couldn't find it listed anywhere. I shoot an improved version of that round and don't even load it that hot.

Here are my thoughts; we should all be very careful sharing loads that are not published by the manufactures for a number of reasons.

You never know the condition of the rifle that the load might find its way into.

You don't know the experience of the individual that might try it.

Individual components i.e. cases, primers and bullets all have an effect on pressure. Simple change of a bullet or primer on a hot load could be devastating.

Back in the day (I'm dating myself now), we played with a lot of crazy loads trying to find that sweet spot. I won't even hint on this open forum what we were doing because someone might decide to try it themselves without the foundation and knowledge to do it correctly. Many shooters wanted me to share what we were doing. Always told them I could not because of the liability was something that I was not willing to risk. I even got accused of being a jerk for not sharing, wasn't being a jerk, just being safe.

Thankfully, with the current wide variety of components available to us today, there is no need to do that anymore. Well, I still do it for my BR rigs

In the 70's and early 80's, I had the privilege of managing a small chain of hunting and fishing stores (3 stores) in California. It was store policy that no employee was allowed to quote load data. If a customer wanted load information, the employee was required to grab a published load manual, look it up and show the customer. This removed any and all liability to the company, and it was just plan safe. Any deviation from that were grounds for immediate dismissal.

There was a well know shop in So Cal that was put out of business after an employee gave a customer bad loading advice. The resulting law suit after the gun blew up (Super Blackhawk) and the shooter badly injured forced the store to close the doors, sad.

So again, this is NOT an attack. Only respectfully suggesting caution when giving advice or sharing load data.

First and foremost, we don't want to see anyone get hurt. Second, in today's crazy sue happy world, none of us need to expose ourselves to the possible liability. Bad advice could even drag LRH into a lawsuit. Chances of LRH losing a lawsuit because someone gave out bad advice would be pretty slim. Put the possibility of getting drug into one that would cost a lot of money to defend is there.

Everyone be well and safe.

PS. It is sad that in today's world we need to think "can I get sued for this?"

Great thread, especially for the new reloaders to not start loading based on advise but by consulting reloading manuals.

I am guilty of providing load data and not disclosing this works for my rifle only, the good thing is all my loads are below max but still, all rifles react differently and we should always recommend to start low and work it up based on the book.

Again great thread and hope you all stay safe

 

[Axl]

I'm welding up a receiver hitch for my travel trailer so I can double pull a small atv trailer behind it -- here are a few suggestions for trailer hitches (not like Im looking for though)
View attachment 193541View attachment 193542

just because someone did it and posted it on the net doesnt make it a smart idea to duplicate it if you have 1/2 a brain

I like that the paint on the car matches his trailer house!

 

[Frog4aday]

I often wonder why people bother posting their load info anyway. That works IN YOUR RIFLE. Yea! What use is that to someone else? But if the info posted is within the MIN and MAX range of a published reloading manual, then great. No harm done.

My gripe is the jackwagon that posts they got 3250fps from their .270 Win with a 150gr Nosler Partition using 4900 Super X powder at 78 grains. That's ridiculous. Then when you question the obvious overpressure situation, they'll reply, "Well that was with my JimBob Custom rifle with a 30" Bartlein barrel with an extended free-bore custom chamber." Yeah. Right. Okay. But when you post a ridiculous velocity WITHOUT the pertinent info, you are setting up the unknowing and ill-informed to try and achieve what can't be achieved in THEIR rifle (safely.)

I do realize we are all adults and responsible for our own choices in life. I also feel that posting insane and unrealistic load data to impress others (can't imagine any other reason they are doing it) borders on irresponsible and is actually unimpressive to those in the know. So...let's just stop doing that. If you have a great pet load, just post "PM me for details" and share only vague details (powder, bullet, primer, for example.) Then you can share your wonder load with those that are truly interested and not every tide-pod chewing reloader with a web-browser. Just a thought.

 

[Dean2]

Frog4

You are spot on. I saw this on another post here on this very forum just a couple of days ago. Some fellow recommends what is obviously a seriously over pressure load, fully 250 fps above published max and to be shot out of a lever gun in 300 Savage. When I brace him about what he was recommending to the OP he then says it is with a 26" barrel and he is at 7000 feet elevation. When I point out that 2" of barrel doesn't add 250 fps and that elevation has absolutely zero to do with muzzle velocity and pressure he gets really Poed and starts in on the personal insults and attacks. To me that is proof positive that even on a forum of this caliber there are no shortage of idiots who either post stuff they know nothing about, or are completely clueless as to how dangerous what they are doing actually is.