Giving out Load Advice caution!
- Thread starter Randy Tidwell
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antelopedundee
Well-Known Member
Well you need to get to know your rifle and whether or not you can safely go over published loads. This takes a little experimenting. Using loads suggested by others should ALWAYS be approached with caution.
Do you think that loads for wildcats published by Parker Ackley are safe and well tested? Esp. with today's components. He shot 8mm bullets down a .30 caliber barrel with no pressure signs. Now people here would get crucified for even suggesting that.
P.O. Ackley blew up a lot of guns in his time. He admits it in his books. His loads were way too hot even with the components they used back then. What he called no pressure signs is a whole pot load different than what you get with a strain gauge. Never use Ackley's published loads, he did his work using no pressure testing machinery at all. H was the original idiot posting far over pressure loads, long before the internet ever came around.
antelopedundee
Well-Known Member
I've never used his loads. Is IMR4350 for example the same now as it was in his time? I've never trusted that they are in fact the same.
While most of us don't have 'strain gauges' to see where we really are with pressure, we do have a tool that costs $135 (ProChrono DLX, w/bluetooth connectivity) that would keep a lot of people out of trouble.
When combined with loading manuals, a person can see when they've "reached pressure" (via velocity) without having to keep going until they are getting cratered, flattened, pierced primers, hard bolt lift, loose primer pockets, ejector swipes, & excessive web expansion.
Look at the powder you are using. Match it to the bullet you are using. What did the "book" show as the velocity when reaching "maximum" pressure for that combo? Let's just say it was 50 grains of Varget using a 150gr Sierra Soft Point in a 24" barrel using a CCI #200 large rifle primer (LRP). Maximum SAAMI pressure was found at 2,900 fps with this combo.
You are working up toward maximum and at 48.5 grains you hit 2,900 fps in your rifle with a 24" barrel. You don't see pressure signs. Bolt lift was fine. Primers are fine. Do you keep going? Think about it - you have reached the laboratory tested maximum pressure for that bullet/powder/primer combo. You COULD keep going and may still not see pressure 'signs' (besides your velocity increasing) but you are now ABOVE tested SAAMI maximum pressure for that cartridge. Why push it? Do you really think the elk will be able to tell you got another 100 fps from your load and it "killed" faster/better than the 100fps slower load? Will your trajectory really change that much that it is worth the risks? You're an adult. You'll have to make that call.
But at least with a chronograph and "book" data available to you, you can make EDUCATED, INFORMED choices. People that are reloading and 'pushing past max' without a chronograph baffle me. You've spent how much on your rifle? Scope? Scope mount? Accessories (bipod; rails; sling; muzzle brake)? Reloading equipment? But you couldn't find another $135 in the budget for the one "pressure indicating tool" we DO have easily and readily available to us?
From the OPs original post, that was my take away - the writer seemed to be going by 'feel' and 'signs' rather than saying he was USING the chronograph the whole time to work up his load. And to a neophyte reloader, that can be a misleading thing to say.
What I'm reading here is a bunch of experienced, knowledgeable, sharper than average shooters and reloaders 'defending' their system. That's fine. You (probably) aren't going to be influenced one way or another by what a magazine writer wrote, or even what I write. I don't think the OP was talking about you guys and gals.
You all are using a chronograph though, right?
Look at the powder you are using. Match it to the bullet you are using. What did the "book" show as the velocity when reaching "maximum" pressure for that combo? Let's just say it was 50 grains of Varget using a 150gr Sierra Soft Point in a 24" barrel using a CCI #200 large rifle primer (LRP). Maximum SAAMI pressure was found at 2,900 fps with this combo.
You are working up toward maximum and at 48.5 grains you hit 2,900 fps in your rifle with a 24" barrel. You don't see pressure signs. Bolt lift was fine. Primers are fine. Do you keep going? Think about it - you have reached the laboratory tested maximum pressure for that bullet/powder/primer combo. You COULD keep going and may still not see pressure 'signs' (besides your velocity increasing) but you are now ABOVE tested SAAMI maximum pressure for that cartridge. Why push it? Do you really think the elk will be able to tell you got another 100 fps from your load and it "killed" faster/better than the 100fps slower load? Will your trajectory really change that much that it is worth the risks? You're an adult. You'll have to make that call.
But at least with a chronograph and "book" data available to you, you can make EDUCATED, INFORMED choices. People that are reloading and 'pushing past max' without a chronograph baffle me. You've spent how much on your rifle? Scope? Scope mount? Accessories (bipod; rails; sling; muzzle brake)? Reloading equipment? But you couldn't find another $135 in the budget for the one "pressure indicating tool" we DO have easily and readily available to us?
From the OPs original post, that was my take away - the writer seemed to be going by 'feel' and 'signs' rather than saying he was USING the chronograph the whole time to work up his load. And to a neophyte reloader, that can be a misleading thing to say.
What I'm reading here is a bunch of experienced, knowledgeable, sharper than average shooters and reloaders 'defending' their system. That's fine. You (probably) aren't going to be influenced one way or another by what a magazine writer wrote, or even what I write. I don't think the OP was talking about you guys and gals.
You all are using a chronograph though, right?
They aren't the same. I have 4831 and 4350 from before they were H or IMR, it was just the powder numbers. The old 4831 I have is military surplus that came in 40 pound kegs and was definitely milder and slower burning than modern 4831 by H or IMR.
.300 Dakota
Well-Known Member
And I have a load for a 284 Winchester that averages 2945 f/s with 180 grain Bergers, but no way I'm about to throw that out there to somebody who owns an old Browning in that chambering and suggest they try it (or not even suggest anything). My rifle is specially built to handle this with a very long throat, and it is still "hot" because primers begin to flatten and ejector marks start to appear.
I got burned on this once myself. I took data from a site that let members post data on a 6.5x284 Norma. I thought the numbers seemed gaudy, so I was smart enough to back off 1 grain from what the member published. It blew the primer out of the case and locked the bolt up on my Savage LRH! I don't know that I'd be here if I had used the entire charge. My chronograph registered over 3300 f/s with a Nosler 120gr Ballistic Tip.
I do my fair share of wildcatting and load wildcatting to use powders not listed with cartridges by the manufacturer to find novel uses for which their burn rates are ideal. LeverEvolution is an example. LeverEvolution can be especially dangerous if the user is not knowledgeable. Likewise, I learned not to monkey with excessively fast burning powders for the Creedmoor loadings. There is a very narrow range of safety, and I found out as many years as I have found useful uncharted loads, I was in territory that I wasn't capable of controlling. Remember, it takes less of a fast burning powder to kill you than a slow one, but either will do the job when you reach that charge of 1 kernel above oblivion. And I will argue that there are factory bolt guns running around out there that cannot safely handle listed max charges in manuals, or even some of the hotter factory ammo. I had a Ruger M77 in 257 Roberts that was a good example. A Remington 700 Mountain Rifle was another example. If I had started with some of these charges thrown out there, I wouldn't be here to type this. I have ran into far more examples where the throat of the chamber was cut short. While most of these rifles would handle most of the published max charges in manuals, that's ALL they would handle. As to whether you do or don't put data on the Internet, I understand both arguments. I will generally put it out there if it isn't "hot" in my rifle and my rifle has "normal" chamber dimensions. I do always put a cautionary statement that one should start a few grains short of that load and work up carefully, unless the load is known to be light - to - moderate in power. There are occasions I have worked up lower powered loads for use by children, heart patients, or ladies, or just to save barrel and shoulder if I had a large caliber rifle I liked to carry that was made for larger game, but could be used to kill deer with way less power than when fully stoked (i.e. 375 Ruger, .340 Wby). I like to think I'm helpful, but I certainly do not want to be the source of harm whether or not legally responsible. I would want anyone posting "exceptional" data to forewarn me if they had a specially modified chamber or saw any signs of pressure.
.300 Dakota
Well-Known Member
Failed to copy quote... see below.
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.300 Dakota
Well-Known Member
One of my favorite cartridges! I have recently found Norma 203B is the "cat's meow" with 120 grain Ballistic Tips. I have a Criterion 26" 1:8 pre-fit on a Savage, but have loaded for a 1:9 Lilja on an ultralight in this chambering also. I haven't tried my 130gr Bergers in this one yet because when I achieved a ragged hole with the Ballistic Tips, I stopped development. I use the gun for hunting deer at "normal" hunting ranges. This bullet inverts them faster and more consistently than anything else I've used in any other bore diameter. If I need more distance, I will definitely try the Bergers and reduce my current charge accordingly.
milo-2
Well-Known Member
I shot 2 - 6.5x47's for yrs. My go to powder was VV N 550, I just liked the slower powder and non magnum primer(205M). 130gr Norma golden target the preferred bullet, but 136 Scenar L was awesome too.
Snipers Hide in the reloading depot section may have some of the most extensive data where Varget is concerned.
If you give your COAL, case capacity, barrel length, bullet, powder choice, etc..., I will run profiles in QL for you.
CTK
Well-Known Member
My x47 is also a deer rifle. Has a 23" Bartlein 2b contour barrel. I have plopped several doe with the 120BT. Shot a 200+ pound buck with the 130 HVLD Berger and was somewhat displeased with the results. I could have hit a branch prior to the buck but regardless had to put one more in him.
CTK
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Someone ran a Quickload for me and proved I am using an above max load of Varget.
Civil discussions on handloads are easy it just cannot be done with anything political as a couple of recent thread prove
