Gel Test Data part 2

[RockyMtnMT]

I understand, but with all being equal I would think to compare weight class as close to equal as possible? Just like you did with FPS, you got that as close as you could is all I'm saying. Thanks

So next time you would like to see a lighter Berger compared to the Hammer?

 

[RockyMtnUT]

So next time you would like to see a lighter Berger compared to the Hammer?

Since, the Berger 215 seems to be a "gold standard" for many in the Berger group.. if it was myself and company I would use that bullet and bring your most comparable in weight and run it. I know that's what I would prefer. If not then yes, drop weight on the Berger side to match. To me it makes sense to compare against all gold standard bullets as possible... any make and model. Thanks

 

[ButterBean]

Equal velocities top end, and low? But equal weight is all. (Equal velocities like what was done in the case study.) I don't understand the logic in comparing if they are not equals or as close as we can? The results may very well be similar I don't know.

If you load to the same velocity you are handicapping the mono by hobbling it

 

[RockyMtnUT]

If you load to the same velocity you are handicapping the mono by hobbling it

Test at "same speed", that gives a "equal baseline" and let the consumer speed them up from there if wanted which most will do. I'm not understanding how that hobbles it when trying to compare equals?

 

[jessej]

Compare the newest mid engine vette with a Ford Focus, but tune the vette down to focus horsepower……. Nah.

Don't get bent outa shape. Just a parable. I love 215s also

 

[Lou270]

If this is the case then all the years that I have heard that the tip needs to be opened up is useless info? I personally would much rather have a bullet that consistently opens from the inside out and remains nose 1st for predictable straight line penetration. Particularly shots that are quartering.

You can open the tip but then reduces bc and defeats the high bc/vld purpose. It may make things worse if widen too much as now you have a very thin jacketed hollow point vs a bullet that will penetrate some distance before fragmenting. The match hollow point is really only there as a result of forming the jacket and no tip or lead. Not meant to help expand in any way - only optimize bc and be accurate as possible. In general, they behave just like military fmj but some folks figured out if you keep the jacket thin they fragment reliably (which is not the case with fmj) and work well as game bullet when deep penetration not needed

Lou

 

[ButterBean]

Test at "same speed", that gives a "equal baseline" and let the consumer speed them up from there if wanted which most will do. I'm not understanding how that hobbles it when trying to compare equals?

Well the way I see it is the cup and core and the mono will never be equal

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Since, the Berger 215 seems to be a "gold standard" for many in the Berger group if it was myself and company I would use that bullet and bring your most comparable in weight and run it. I know that's what I would prefer. If not then yes, drop weight on the Berger side to match. Thanks

I see where you are coming from. I came at this from the aspect of the best setup for the bullet brand in the chosen cartridge. My objective was to show that the Hammer Bullet could run with or exceed a bullet that is considered by many to be the best there is. I wanted to make this comparison from muzzle to beyond what 90% of hunters will ever shoot to on game. I'm not looking to make a bullet like anyone else. I am intending to make a bullet better than anyone else. I still have some of these loaded. If we find a good place to shoot farther, I'll compare them again. I likely won't have a film crew available. I wouldn't mind finding the range where the Berger passes the 199g Hammer Hunter in some way. Judging by the gel test it will have to happen above 2000 fps to 2200 fps for the Berger to have good terminal results. By my standards. I am pretty sure there is no way the Berger can out perform the 199g Hammer Hunter in drop, wind, or terminal performance within it's effective hunting velocity range.

I have a 30-338 Lap imp that will push the 199g Hammer Hunter to 3600 fps. I could load it with the same two bullets and see what happens. Although I think it is a waste of time and powder and bullets.

We have a target specific design in .338 cal that is not for hunting that runs a bc in the .9's g1. We could then compare target bullet to target bullet and forget about terminal performance. We just haven't had time to finish working on the target line. I am not that interested in that though. Maybe if we get into the K2O race.

I would like to continue to compare Hammers to other high quality hunting bullets. Same test parameters. You all chose the bullet to compare to and I will choose the Hammer to run against it. We will run each bullet to the highest level of performance within reach of most shooters and available factory cartridges and compare them at the close range impact in gel and a long range impact in gel. Then we will shoot them out to distance and see the difference in wind deflection at about 800y. Assuming the cartridge is effective that far.

 

[adam32+P]

If you load to the same velocity you are handicapping the mono by hobbling it

I doubt the 214hh would be that much faster (if any) than the 215 Berger, so how would it be handicapping the mono?

And in reality, a 215 Berger at 3,000fps is Win Mag velocity, not RUM.

Either bullet at either velocity will kill any animal in it's path at 98% of most ranges guys hunt at. So really anyone can flip a coin and be happy.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Test at "same speed", that gives a "equal baseline" and let the consumer speed them up from there if wanted which most will do. I'm not understanding how that hobbles it when trying to compare equals?

So you would like me to load down the Hammers to equal the competitors capability? That's like giving slower runners in the Olympics a head start to make the race more even at the end. I know you want equal to equal, but they are differently designed bullets. They should be loaded to their capability. I didn't load the Hammer in a hotter rifle to give it an advantage. It has an advantage by design. I couldn't load the Berger any hotter. By most standards I was pretty hot with my load.

 

[ButterBean]

I doubt the 214hh would be that much faster (if any) than the 215 Berger, so how would it be handicapping the mono?

And in reality, a 215 Berger at 3,000fps is Win Mag velocity, not RUM.

Either bullet at either velocity will kill any animal in it's path at 98% of most ranges guys hunt at. So really anyone can flip a coin and be happy.

I'm betting The 214 is gonna be 100-150 fps faster than the215

 

[ButterBean]

So you would like me to load down the Hammers to equal the competitors capability? That's like giving slower runners in the Olympics a head start to make the race more even at the end. I know you want equal to equal, but they are differently designed bullets. They should be loaded to their capability. I didn't load the Hammer in a hotter rifle to give it an advantage. It has an advantage by design. I couldn't load the Berger any hotter. By most standards I was pretty hot with my load.

My point exactly

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I doubt the 214hh would be that much faster (if any) than the 215 Berger, so how would it be handicapping the mono?

And in reality, a 215 Berger at 3,000fps is Win Mag velocity, not RUM.

Either bullet at either velocity will kill any animal in it's path at 98% of most ranges guys hunt at. So really anyone can flip a coin and be happy.

We ran it at 3170 fps in the rum. Not 3000 fps.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

My point exactly

For some reason you can never have a normal conversation and try to understand anyone else's opinion. I understand your point. I'm out.