Gel Test Data part 2

[Bob Wright]

Very interesting thread. I'm interested in seeing how my 143HH at 3300 fps stacks up to the the 131 at a faster speed at distance. I just don't have 2 rifles available with same twist and powder capacity to do simultaneous firings. I like that idea but can't pull it off.

Now, if I had Musk's money, I would build a 1000 yard wind tunnel, free to use!!
Back to earth now....

 

[HARPERC]

Apples to oranges. The Hammer has a 300 fps advantage.

Take a 200gr Berger and run it 300 fps faster than the Hammer and see what happens.

Shoot a 150gr round nose at the same velocity as a 150gr VLD and tell me BC doesn't have any advantages.

BC absolutely matters in LONG range hunting. To say otherwise is simply false.

Velocity both initial and terminal matter as well. We know at some BC will "catch" the faster bullet. Whichever we prefer like a pilot trading altitude for airspeed both have to be part of the equation.

It's a comparison, apples can be compared to oranges, and a personal choice can be made.

 

[sedancowboy]

Lets talk about the real numbers here and define the goal or outcome of this exercise.
As was stated above it appears that the goal is to produce a better bullet. So lets define a "better"
bullet. One that reaches the target or in this case the animal and kills said animal the quickest. This is not a debate about pure target bullets designed to do nothing but punch holes in paper.

As a disclaimer I have never met Steve from Hammer bullets nor have I ever fired one of his bullets.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets but have never shot the 30 cal 215 Hyb.
As I have read over the years most people buying bullets have been conditioned to believe that BC trumps all other characteristics of a bullets performance. If I understand Steve ,and I am not putting words in his mouth, It is his goal to produce a better terminally performing bullet that will still fly straight and true. Since we all know that their is no free lunch lets see how 197 Hammers vs the 215 Hybrids perform by the numbers. I am under no illusions here we will not solve this debate here but perhaps we can add a little understanding. I have read over and over here on LRH that Hammers are great but they are not long range bullets. That their low BC limits their use at long range. At this point it becomes necessary to define long range. For the purposes of this post we will define LR as 600 to 1000 yds. Lets also understand that the vast majority of game is killed at much shorter ranges I would estimate 98% and that is just a guess. But everyone wants to run with the big boys and so they base their purchasing decisions on what infomation they gather from advertising and personal experiences such as this form. We and I include myself often buy a bullet based on the Advertised BC and if that number is lower than the other bullets we are comparing to, we dismiss the lower in favor of the higher BC.
Now the the numbers. All info is based on the advertised specs from the Manufactures web site.
The 199 Hammer weighs 197 grs the 215 Berger is at 215 grs. That is a difference of 18grs or the Hammer is 8.4% lighter. The stated length of the Hammer is 1.625 and the Berger is 1.598 or a difference of .027 which means the Hammer is longer by 1.7% and Last the BC of the Hammer is stated as G7 .299 and the Berger is stated as .354 which is a difference of .055 and means that the Berger has a 15.6% advantage. These numbers are telling. As I read this form it is like a lot of folks are arguing that the Hammers have no BC or that it is in the gutter.
Steve is arguing that is simply not true. Yes it is lower by a little but it also goes faster. At some point the higher BC will out run the lower BC even if it is by .001 but where is that 2-3 miles? So does the BC matter yes. Should we be purchasing our hunting bullets solely based on BC my answer NO. Steve has preached that twist rate has a lot to do with terminal performance. Not the minimal twist rate for true flight but twist rate for good straight penetration in flesh and bone. my personal experience has found this to be true even with the cup and core bullets that I have been using. When I went to faster twist rates my bullet performance went up accordingly.
Steve set out to produce a better bullet. We also are conditioned to believe that heavy for caliber is the only way to go. Steve is challenging that theory. Has he produced a better bullet for hunting? Yes he has and he is still trying to improve on it. My son just had a .277 145 gr bullet fail on a good hit at 145 yds on a big Whitetail buck last Monday. Tuesday he ordered a box of Hammers. I will be switching all my hunting rifles to Hammers before the 2023 season starts.

 

[ButterBean]

Lets talk about the real numbers here and define the goal or outcome of this exercise.
As was stated above it appears that the goal is to produce a better bullet. So lets define a "better"
bullet. One that reaches the target or in this case the animal and kills said animal the quickest. This is not a debate about pure target bullets designed to do nothing but punch holes in paper.

As a disclaimer I have never met Steve from Hammer bullets nor have I ever fired one of his bullets.
I have shot thousands of Berger bullets but have never shot the 30 cal 215 Hyb.
As I have read over the years most people buying bullets have been conditioned to believe that BC trumps all other characteristics of a bullets performance. If I understand Steve ,and I am not putting words in his mouth, It is his goal to produce a better terminally performing bullet that will still fly straight and true. Since we all know that their is no free lunch lets see how 197 Hammers vs the 215 Hybrids perform by the numbers. I am under no illusions here we will not solve this debate here but perhaps we can add a little understanding. I have read over and over here on LRH that Hammers are great but they are not long range bullets. That their low BC limits their use at long range. At this point it becomes necessary to define long range. For the purposes of this post we will define LR as 600 to 1000 yds. Lets also understand that the vast majority of game is killed at much shorter ranges I would estimate 98% and that is just a guess. But everyone wants to run with the big boys and so they base their purchasing decisions on what infomation they gather from advertising and personal experiences such as this form. We and I include myself often buy a bullet based on the Advertised BC and if that number is lower than the other bullets we are comparing to, we dismiss the lower in favor of the higher BC.
Now the the numbers. All info is based on the advertised specs from the Manufactures web site.
The 199 Hammer weighs 197 grs the 215 Berger is at 215 grs. That is a difference of 18grs or the Hammer is 8.4% lighter. The stated length of the Hammer is 1.625 and the Berger is 1.598 or a difference of .027 which means the Hammer is longer by 1.7% and Last the BC of the Hammer is stated as G7 .299 and the Berger is stated as .354 which is a difference of .055 and means that the Berger has a 15.6% advantage. These numbers are telling. As I read this form it is like a lot of folks are arguing that the Hammers have no BC or that it is in the gutter.
Steve is arguing that is simply not true. Yes it is lower by a little but it also goes faster. At some point the higher BC will out run the lower BC even if it is by .001 but where is that 2-3 miles? So does the BC matter yes. Should we be purchasing our hunting bullets solely based on BC my answer NO. Steve has preached that twist rate has a lot to do with terminal performance. Not the minimal twist rate for true flight but twist rate for good straight penetration in flesh and bone. my personal experience has found this to be true even with the cup and core bullets that I have been using. When I went to faster twist rates my bullet performance went up accordingly.
Steve set out to produce a better bullet. We also are conditioned to believe that heavy for caliber is the only way to go. Steve is challenging that theory. Has he produced a better bullet for hunting? Yes he has and he is still trying to improve on it. My son just had a .277 145 gr bullet fail on a good hit at 145 yds on a big Whitetail buck last Monday. Tuesday he ordered a box of Hammers. I will be switching all my hunting rifles to Hammers before the 2023 season starts.

Very well said and thank you Sir

 

[ButterBean]

Velocity both initial and terminal matter as well. We know at some BC will "catch" the faster bullet. Whichever we prefer like a pilot trading altitude for airspeed both have to be part of the equation.

It's a comparison, apples can be compared to oranges, and a personal choice can be made.

I concour

 

[GLTaylor]

Sedancowboy,
X2. Well said and in my opinion, quite accurate.
Len's recent poll on LRH confirms that 95+% of hunters shoot to <500 yds.
Increased twist does better stabilize bullets and improves terminal performance and straight penetration.
I'm still chuckling. We realize that higher BC is of little extra value to the majority of us, and yet we insist on trying to "stack the odds" in our favor. Nothing wrong with that - just human nature. Higher BC sells bullets today!
Keep it coming all. This is great stuff. And thank you Steve! (He & Brian are working on a higher bc bullet as we speak)!

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Apples to oranges. The Hammer has a 300 fps advantage.

Take a 200gr Berger and run it 300 fps faster than the Hammer and see what happens.

Shoot a 150gr round nose at the same velocity as a 150gr VLD and tell me BC doesn't have any advantages.

BC absolutely matters in LONG range hunting. To say otherwise is simply false.

Hats off to everyone. It has stayed civil.

I never said that bc doesn't have any advantages. bc is a very good indication of how fast a bullet will lose velocity. It is the coefficient of drag. It is not the coefficient of drift. There is not formula, that I know of, that will calculate how much wind will effect the flight path of a bullet. My point is that bc is the only formula that we have, so it is used as a drift calculator. I think at best it will give an indication of drift. Wind is never consistent anywhere, so it is going to be very tough to prove this stuff, without a shadow of a doubt. All I know, is that over the years of testing different bullets from different rifles at the same shooting session, inevitably I wind up holding nearly identical wind for all the rifles in the session. This has never made sense, but I would just let it go. Obviously, this did not hold true with 44g 22 cal compared to a 260g 33 cal. I know what we all do. If the drift is more or less than what we calculate we chalk it up to not getting the wind exactly correct.

You all want to test the theory, by all means do! I would love to hear more results. Shoot different rifles with different bullets in the same shooting session. See what the difference is. Is it more or less diff between bullets than expected?

Alex Wheeler made a comment a few months ago that really got me cooking on this whole wind drift thing. He said he wished he had quit paying attention to bc a long time ago in the 1000y bench rest competition. I paraphrased. His being able to shoot smaller aggregate groups in switching wind with a lower bc bullet is a true indication that using bc to predict drift is not exact. Maybe not even beneficial.

 

[Lou270]

Lol. Fighting the BC discussion on a long range forum is peeing in the wind. I happen to agree by the way. Terminal performance over few inches of wind drift but I fall in the under 500 category. That being said we all have our own definition of ideal terminal performance

As for twist rate always helping with terminal performance - depends. The 215 berger results are perfect ex. The reason it penetrated much more deeply at long range before "expanding" is because it was more stable at that distance. Bullets with no means to initiate expansion (ie closed/narrow hps) rupture when they start to yaw. When that happens, the tip will bend and either bullet will rupture or tumble/rupture if velocity high enough and jacket thin enough (reason berger hunting jackets thinner). Literally loads of info on this bullet type as used by military to get around poor wounding of fmj. It is also quite reliable form of expansion unless very narrow target - again if jacket is thin enough. That is why bergers have good rep in any case but you will not get deep penetration unless bullet "fails". Kind of opposite way we think about that…

As for straight penetration in game due to stability you see it here as well with berger. About 2" up close vs 9" or whatever before starts to yaw. That is with about the poorest form factor possible for straight penetration. Somebody can figure the math but that is prob sg of 1.6 up close to 3-4+ at distance but pointed bullet will typically tumble inside an animal no matter twist. Expansion will happen in first few inches and the vast majority of "straight" penetration is terminal shape and shoulder stabilizatio after that. Reason shotgun slugs with no twist have no problem penetrating straight. Sorry for diversion on post - but this always bugs me when I read it

Any case, good test Steve. My main concern with using traditional mono, even at moderate long range is expansion/trauma and looks good from that front

Lou

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Apples to oranges. The Hammer has a 300 fps advantage.

Take a 200gr Berger and run it 300 fps faster than the Hammer and see what happens.

Shoot a 150gr round nose at the same velocity as a 150gr VLD and tell me BC doesn't have any advantages.

BC absolutely matters in LONG range hunting. To say otherwise is simply false.

Oh, I forgot. I made this test intentionally real world apples to apples. I used a factory 300 rum to load both bullets to the highest potential in the cartridge. I used a factory chamber and rifle on purpose, because it is something that many hunters are going go to for long range hunting. Basically, the most horsepower readily available to hunters. I did not handicap either bullet. I pushed them as hard as was reasonable. Yes this resulted in a 300 fps advantage to the Hammer Hunter. That is real life results. If you can get a 200g Berger to run 300 fps faster than the 199g Hammer Hunter, then it will have an advantage in drop and drift. I don't think you can though. Also it will have a disadvantage on short and long range impacts. At least if it performs the same as the 215g tested here. I set up the long range impact testing to give both bullets as close as possible, the same impact velocities. If I remember correctly, they were within about 30 fps of each other. Both below 2000 fps but above advertised or accepted minimum for hunting.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Lol. Fighting the BC discussion on a long range forum is peeing in the wind. I happen to agree by the way. Terminal performance over few inches of wind drift but I fall in the under 500 category. That being said we all have our own definition of ideal terminal performance

As for twist rate always helping with terminal performance - depends. The 215 berger results are perfect ex. The reason it penetrated much more deeply at long range before "expanding" is because it was more stable at that distance. Bullets with no means to initiate expansion (ie closed/narrow hps) rupture when they start to yaw. When that happens, the tip will bend and either bullet will rupture or tumble/rupture if velocity high enough and jacket thin enough (reason berger hunting jackets thinner). Literally loads of info on this bullet type as used by military to get around poor wounding of fmj. It is also quite reliable form of expansion unless very narrow target - again if jacket is thin enough. That is why bergers have good rep in any case but you will not get deep penetration unless bullet "fails". Kind of opposite way we think about that…

As for straight penetration in game due to stability you see it here as well with berger. About 2" up close vs 9" or whatever before starts to yaw. That is with about the poorest form factor possible for straight penetration. Somebody can figure the math but that is prob sg of 1.6 up close to 3-4+ at distance but pointed bullet will typically tumble inside an animal no matter twist. Expansion will happen in first few inches and the vast majority of "straight" penetration is terminal shape and shoulder stabilizatio after that. Reason shotgun slugs with no twist have no problem penetrating straight. Sorry for diversion on post - but this always bugs me when I read it

Any case, good test Steve. My main concern with using traditional mono, even at moderate long range is expansion/trauma and looks good from that front

Lou

So if I read this correctly, the Berger design is to tumble as soon as possible in impact? Tumbling bullets do extensive damage, but are unpredictable in direction of travel.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

Oh, I forgot. I made this test intentionally real world apples to apples. I used a factory 300 rum to load both bullets to the highest potential in the cartridge. I used a factory chamber and rifle on purpose, because it is something that many hunters are going go to for long range hunting. Basically, the most horsepower readily available to hunters. I did not handicap either bullet. I pushed them as hard as was reasonable. Yes this resulted in a 300 fps advantage to the Hammer Hunter. That is real life results. If you can get a 200g Berger to run 300 fps faster than the 199g Hammer Hunter, then it will have an advantage in drop and drift. I don't think you can though. Also it will have a disadvantage on short and long range impacts. At least if it performs the same as the 215g tested here. I set up the long range impact testing to give both bullets as close as possible, the same impact velocities. If I remember correctly, they were within about 30 fps of each other. Both below 2000 fps but above advertised or accepted minimum for hunting.

Curious why you didn't use your 214HH vs 215Berger? Thanks
Seems like a red apple to red apple?

 

[74honker]

Lot of great info here. Keep it coming and hats off to Steve and the gang at Hammer for the pursuit of perfection. Isn't this what we are all trying to acheive in all our loading, shooting, and for some of you, wildcating!

 

[jessej]

just to ward off any folks ideas that I'm a fan boy of any one particular projo…
Check out what I tested this afternoon. Just working up a few loads.
215s at 3175 fps
124s at 4200 ish

 

[jessej]

Not meant to derail steve. Sorry