GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

[secondofangle]

Sounds like it's in the same vein as cryogenic treatment and Moly coating, if you ask me.

 

[Pdvdh]

FBI, Military has been testing this on AR-Types, They are not seeing any real good proof thats it does anything . The Heat still brakes up the structure of the Metal at the throat and thats not going to change with a hard coating or Heat Treating.

Perhaps that's because the military's rate of fire in their testing is a much worse test than the LRH or competition shooters would place on their barrels.

It is being demonstrated to extend barrel life, but maybe not in a full-auto weapon or even semi-auto rapid-fire style of military weapon.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/melonite-barrel-treatment-81681/

http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...atings-used-rifle-throats-slow-erosion-81569/

And it's not at all similar to moly treatment of bullets or cryogenic treatment of barrels.

 

[WildRose]

FBI, Military has been testing this on AR-Types, They are not seeing any real good proof thats it does anything . The Heat still brakes up the structure of the Metal at the throat and thats not going to change with a hard coating or Heat Treating.

Full auto creates an enormous amount of heat very quickly.

In M-60's you could turn the barrel red hot with one 20 second burst. AR's can get so hot in a fire fight the ammo will cook off in the chamber if you don't restrict yourself to 3-5rd bursts.

Melonite treatment has been shown however to work very well at extending barrel life with the kind of shooting we do.

One problem with it though is once it's done you'll never be able to do any more machining on that barrel so you won't be cutting it off and setting it back like you can a barrel that hasn't been so treated.

 

[secondofangle]

I know this may seem heretical in the shooting sports, but....

I'm a scientist.

I need data.

Where are the data for these claims? Like randomized controlled data free from bias?

THAT's where the comparison to cryo and moly comes from. Fads and trends unsupported by data.

 

[WildRose]

I know this may seem heretical in the shooting sports, but....

I'm a scientist.

I need data.

Where are the data for these claims? Like randomized controlled data free from bias?

THAT's where the comparison to cryo and moly comes from. Fads and trends unsupported by data.

I am too, unfortunately there's not a published scientific study to document everything that has ever happened.

In the case of the benefits of the Hi Temp Salt Treatments as far as I can tell all that is available is anecdotal evidence.

Think about what it would cost to line up 1,000 rifles of varying calibers exact same steel, same manufacturer, loads, rates of fire etch to compare barrel life between treated and non treated barrels. Who could afford to do such a study and still stay in business?

If one of the outfits doing the melonite/salts treatments did such a study they'd have to raise the price of their services to such a level no one could justify the expense of doing it.

 

[a10xrifle]

I am too, unfortunately there's not a published scientific study to document everything that has ever happened.

In the case of the benefits of the Hi Temp Salt Treatments as far as I can tell all that is available is anecdotal evidence.

Think about what it would cost to line up 1,000 rifles of varying calibers exact same steel, same manufacturer, loads, rates of fire etch to compare barrel life between treated and non treated barrels. Who could afford to do such a study and still stay in business?

If one of the outfits doing the melonite/salts treatments did such a study they'd have to raise the price of their services to such a level no one could justify the expense of doing it.

with respect to the Militarys testing, there comparison would be to the service life of an M-4 and or M249 Etc, so if they were to get any extention at all you could expect that the life of a Bolt action rifle / Long range rifle to also see some form of Extention of life.


Im sure most of you guys know this but ill say it so those that dont are on the same page, The wear in bolt action rifles comes from heat, The Heat is about 95% gererated by the 58,000 to 67,000 PSI chamber pressure which is released at the highest pressures to the freebore and throat areas of the chamber/barrel. The burning powder is a slight factor but its basicly just the cadalist for the Pressure/Heat. the remaining 5% comes from friction (bullet moving down the bore compressed by the lands.)


If the Militarys testing favored the extention of life it would in fact cross over to bolt guns as well. How much???? well that goes back to the lack of testing. I have yet have any shooters tell me that Melonite gave them X number round count better than their previous barrel. When that starts happening ill be the first to tell.

 

[WildRose]

with respect to the Militarys testing, there comparison would be to the service life of an M-4 and or M249 Etc, so if they were to get any extention at all you could expect that the life of a Bolt action rifle / Long range rifle to also see some form of Extention of life.


Im sure most of you guys know this but ill say it so those that dont are on the same page, The wear in bolt action rifles comes from heat, The Heat is about 95% gererated by the 58,000 to 67,000 PSI chamber pressure which is released at the highest pressures to the freebore and throat areas of the chamber/barrel. The burning powder is a slight factor but its basicly just the cadalist for the Pressure/Heat. the remaining 5% comes from friction (bullet moving down the bore compressed by the lands.)


If the Militarys testing favored the extention of life it would in fact cross over to bolt guns as well. How much???? well that goes back to the lack of testing. I have yet have any shooters tell me that Melonite gave them X number round count better than their previous barrel. When that starts happening ill be the first to tell.

The primary source of heat is the same for semis, full auto, and bolt action rifles.

There is a far greater and more rapid build up/increase in heat however due to rate of fire as there's practicaly no time for the barrel to cool between shots with rapid firing in semi or on full auto at least in comparison to a bolt action rifle.

It's very hard under the best of circumstances to get off more than 30 rounds in a single minute with a BA, whereas 200rp min is easy with a semi, and can be done in 10 seconds or less on full auto.

With so much greater and rapid heat build up in the semis and machine guns you just can't make any sort of realistic comparison between them and bolt action sporting rifles.

 

[a10xrifle]

The primary source of heat is the same for semis, full auto, and bolt action rifles.

There is a far greater and more rapid build up/increase in heat however due to rate of fire as there's practicaly no time for the barrel to cool between shots with rapid firing in semi or on full auto at least in comparison to a bolt action rifle.

It's very hard under the best of circumstances to get off more than 30 rounds in a single minute with a BA, whereas 200rp min is easy with a semi, and can be done in 10 seconds or less on full auto.

With so much greater and rapid heat build up in the semis and machine guns you just can't make any sort of realistic comparison between them and bolt action sporting rifles.

Not an Exact Comparison Correct, but there cartridges are 53,000 PSI max, Not the higher pressures of the WSM's, RUM's, and Wildcats were talking about here which run up to 69,000 in some instances.

Im merely stating that if they were finding an Improvement then we could expect to also find one. They are not so Its up to Shooters to Come to their own conclusions. And frankly most of us dont keep track of shots fired well enough to make the comparison. If it was 20% more life your talking the difference of 800 and 960 in a RUM ??? worth it???????

 

[Pdvdh]

There are people on this Forum in the know that contend that the wear and tear on a throat is much more dependent on the rate of repetitive fire without allowing the barrel to cool between shots, than it is on the cartridge's chamber pressure at 50,000 versus 65,000psi. Fiftydriver has sounded in on this topic a number of times while discussing barrel life with his Allen Magnums and other cartridges.

One of the links I provided in a prior post includes the statement of a competition shooter who has doubled the life of his melonite-treated barrel and is still using that barrel in competition with 1/4 moa accuracy after ~5000 rounds.

So I'm curious; how many rifle owners do you know that have had their barrel melonite treated and then shot their hunting rifle enough times to wear the bore out? You've hinted that you've not heard of experiences of increased bore life coming from melonite treated bores, but have you really had exposure to a number of clients or acquaintances who've melonite treated barrels on their bolt action rifles and then shot them to the point of needing to re-barrel. As recently as melonite treatment has become available to individual firearm owners, I'm trying to understand if your comments are based on intuition or gut feelings about the matter - or if you've been informed by others who've been disappointed with the life of their melonite treated barrels.

I hadn't even heard of the option of melonite treating my barrels until about 18 months ago.

One of the guys with Krieger barrels spoke with Rich (user name elkaholic) within the past month, and told him he thought that if done correctly, melonite treatment was good/worthwhile. Custom rifle barrel manufacturers ought to know a little about the melonite treatment process and the associated benefits.

So are your comments as to the lack of merit in melonite treatment based on gut feelings, or are they due to some negative feedback from owners of melonite treated barrels? I'd like to know, because I'm planning on spending the $100 in the relatively near future, but would rather spend the money on gas if you have substantial factual evidence that melonite treatment of the barrel results in no meaningful increase in barrel life.

 

[WildRose]

Not an Exact Comparison Correct, but there cartridges are 53,000 PSI max, Not the higher pressures of the WSM's, RUM's, and Wildcats were talking about here which run up to 69,000 in some instances.

Im merely stating that if they were finding an Improvement then we could expect to also find one. They are not so Its up to Shooters to Come to their own conclusions. And frankly most of us dont keep track of shots fired well enough to make the comparison. If it was 20% more life your talking the difference of 800 and 960 in a RUM ??? worth it???????

You continue comparing flame throwers to a single match.

Heat is the killer of barrels. The more rapidly that heat is built up and the longer it is maintained the shorter the life of the barrel.

There is no comparison of a bolt action sporting rifle to rapid fire semis or full autos in this regard. None.

 

[paul2atlo8]

Great,great discussion,love it. Learning more and more!

 

[COBrad]

I'm curious about melonite treatment of barrels as well. I spoke with one of the guys at BAT actions today. He was telling me of the benefits of this treatment for actions, and suggested it would extend the life of barrels, but that you wanted to have the barrel broken in first-100 rounds.

 

[a10xrifle]

Love the Internet, Im not bashing Melonite, Id love to have a barrel that lasted longer, the longer the better especially if its $100. Its great on bolts and recievers as its hardness makes them smoothe as glass.

Melonite is still surface hardness the heat is still there and the metal will still make the thermal changes. Some of you may know that FN hard Chromes the bores of its SPR rifles and Winchester tried it with there super short mags intended for Varmit shooting. Ive had the opurtunity to replace alot of those barrels and they all were wore out in the same fashion Heat erosion but with the added twist of flaking chrome. While this is different and not the same as Melonite it was done for the same reasons. The Military and the Fed Goverment has alot of gentlemen on the payroll that test everything. Why would they not be jumping all over the melonite barrel gig for their long range rifles if they were going to last alot longer. Evrn iff it didnt work out for the Bulet Hoses???

I do shoot close to 8,000 rounds a year, this year will be extra heavy with the PRS in full swing and practice for the F Class Worlds, Ill spin up a practice barrel and give her hell. I know that my barrels crap out between 2300-2800 if this one goes past 3000 I will be the first to jump for joy.

I know to some of you Im just a Tacticool Police Paper Puncher, ( I think thats what someone here called me) but thats really not the case at all. I despize shooting at anything less than 400 yards and I actully cannot remember the last time I shot a 308 that was not work related.

All of you guys have a Merry Christmas, Im flying out west for the Holidays and will be without the CPU so you guys have fun. Ill check back in in a week or so.

ScenarShooter, See you in the Spring.

 

[COBrad]

I appreciate your feedback friend.
Happy Holidays to all.