Fastest, Flattest '06 action cartridge

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

Me, i'd open the bolt face up. install a sako or M16 extractor and put a 6.5x68 barrel on it.
Pete

 

[LB]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

There are so many things to consider, even if you specifically mention medium game at no more than 600 yards. And, there is always more than one way to accomplish it.

I don't know why I decided on the 25'06 Ackley, this being my third, but after many years of whacking coyotes to mule deer, and owning several 243s and 6mms and 25'06, I developed a marked preference for 25 caliber, based on downed animals, and percentages, runners, etc. randomly acquired.

I looked at 257 Weatherby numbers, and found that my Ackley came pretty close with much less bark, with a 28" barrel. My personal limit is actually closer to 500 yards than 600, but it does this nicely, not much effort in hold over or dialing it in, with a little range work.

Specifically, what I get is 4,000fps with a 75 VMax and 3650fps with a 100 grain Nosler. I could go a little more, but the law of diminishing returns, and thrift, prevents me. The Nosler is much flatter beyond 350. I did a little work with a 110 gr. Berger & 120 and 117 Sierra, (previous barrels) but, for my application, the 100 Ballistic Tip does everything I want, and is acceptably accurate.

Exactly how this stacks up to a 6mm'06 Ackley, I can't say? My personal yardstick on barrel life prevents me from considering anything beyond 6mm(Rem) AI as far as case capacity goes.

"Fastest, Flattest" could also mean "fastest, shortest" barrel life, and for me, that is always a prime consideration. You have to draw the line somewhere. (fixed income)

Good hunting. LB

 

[3sixbits]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

[ QUOTE ]
Me, i'd open the bolt face up. install a sako or M16 extractor and put a 6.5x68 barrel on it.
Pete

[/ QUOTE ] Pete: How did one so young develop such good taste at such a young age? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Mysticplayer]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

Been following this post with interest as I have been experimenting with this concept for over 4 yrs. Initially, I just kept with the plain jane '06 and 165gr SST's. Worked very well but wind drift was servere at longer ranges.

Tried the 30 Gibbs, I really like this one, but recoil crept up and wind drift was still more then I liked. No worries about on game performance though. But then, we know how well the WSM/Win mags work.

Went to a 6.5-06. What a huge improvement ballistically. I use 140gr SST and 1000m plus is no real issue for plinking. Cutting through wind is wonderful. In fact, I still hold off more then I need. Superbly accurate too but maybe that is due in large part to shooting through conditions.

Just picked up a 270 so that I would have a hunting rifle that uses factory ammo available anywhere in North America.

I shoot with a buddy who uses a 280Rem and 168gr MK. So I have covered all the bases from 6.5 to 30cal.

This is how I boil it down: For plinking, target shooting and excellent wind drift reduction, the 6.5 is hard to beat. Recoil can be moderated even more by using lighter but still very effective bullets.

At LR, initial velocity is of little relevance. High BC bullets are. You can't go fast enough with blunt bullets to matter once you go past 500yds.

For off the shelf, 6.5 gets the nod when paper/varmint is the main goal.

The 270 is a wonderful cal limited only by the bullets available. I am using the 150gr SST and this Savage shoots really small groups. However, at longer ranges, the lower BC of these bullets really shows. Shooting the same day at the same range and target, this 270 was way harder to dope the wind compared to the 6.5 and 280. I would limit this to regular range hunting and LR only when wind is low.

My friend with the 280 shoots a 168gr MK at around 2850fps. My 6.5-06 goes 2950fps with the 140gr SST. Let's call it a ballistic tie (actually the 6.5 has an edge because the BC of the 140gr SST is higher however...). Both beat the wind very well.

The very visible difference is on target. We shoot at a swinging gong and there is a significant difference when the 280 arrives vs the 6.5. Both would be more then adequate but the 280 hits harder.

The gong swings more and the impact craters are wider and deeper. This would make a difference on those less then perfect shots on larger game.

For hunting at LR, I would recommend the largest calibre and heaviest bullet. You don't arrive with alot of velocity. Bullet weight matters more at LR.

In this light, I am stepping up to a 7RM to replace my 6.5-06. With 162 or 168gr going 3000 to 3100fps, it will just hit a lot harder. I hunt in an area where shots from 250 to 900yds are possible.

Why no 30cals? Because you would like to stick to the '06 case. The 30-06 is a wonderful cartridge. A LR stick, it is not. If you step up to a Win Mag, WSM, Wby, then the 30 could be made to work. However, recoil goes up measureably and you will not enjoy target shooting with these cannons for long.

Until more bullets come out for the 270, for your uses, I would recommend the 6.5-06 AI if target shooting is way more then hunting and hunting inside 600yds is a sure thing. I would go 280AI if hunting long more often then not. Heavy bullets just do more work...

From impact testing at longer ranges, I just don't see the 6mm and 25 cals as having any real advantage with present bullets for game. They would be also tough on throats and many bullets would not enjoy going that fast.

The larger the bore the longer the throat life for a given amount of powder burnt. Muzzle velocity starts to hit a wall as bearing surface increases vs calibre. We are limited by the burn characteristics of readily available gun powders.

Wildcat and other boutique manf may change all that so this discussion can readily change. Maybe

Jerry

 

[James Jones]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

Well here is my oppinion on it
for the ranges your shooting under 1000yds , I don't realy think that youll need the sure high BC bullets like the 105 and 107gr 6mm's , personaly I'd build a 6.5-06Ai for these reasons
1)they have a 107gr Sierra match king in that caliber which
would be a great varmint round as you'll be able to drive
it a bit faster than a 6mm bullet of the same weight due
to the round not being so overbored
2)if you do get the urge to to shoot out to the 1k mark the
6.5 bullets are hard to beat and it'll be a better round
if your varmint get to be the size of deer.
3)I'd do the Ackley inproved case just to get better case
life if nothing else.
For maximum splat factor I think that the 95gr V-max run out real had (possibley close to 4000fps)and should be realy flat shooting out to 500yds

I had a 6mm-06 once and was not reay to impressed with the velocity and the bore life sucked accuracy went from sub 1/2moa to 1.5 moa from rounds 800 to 1000. and the cases streched pretty bad to in the basic 06 slope

 

[hvyw8t]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

4000 fps with a 95 grain bullet out of a 6.5-06 AI case, will probably blow up in your face. I think 3500-3600 fps is much more realistic. FYI Cheers

 

[James Jones]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

Well that all depends on your barrel and its length , I was able to get 3700+fps with a 107gr bullet out of a standard 6-06 out of a 28" Hart barrel , lets say you only get 100fps out of the Ackley improvement , then drop 10grs of bullet weight should yield 50-100fps then factor in the added gas flang space from the larger bore should add at least 100fps so I would say that you could get pretty darn close to the the 4k mark again depending on the barrel

 

[Guest]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

I have a Ruger KM77vt that likes 115 Berger VLD's 58.5 gr VHIT N165 3300 fps.works good to 1260 yds. Brass was made from LC62 Match, no pressure signs.25-06 with the right powder is really is a real sleeper.
Good luck
Bear

 

[LB]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

Did I mention that the 25'06Ackley is (quite possibly) the sexiest little ICBM under discussion? Facts is facts.

Aside from that, I have a friend that shoots the 280 Ackley, and that one goes off with a lot of authority. A serious big game cartridge, and in a different class; in my opinion.

At the ranges under consideration, low drag bullets aren't very necessary, again; in my opinion. Besides, I question their killing ability, as a whole classification.

To (personally) acquire emperical evidence on game, would be a long process, therefore, I would consider proven 600 yard game bullets, irrespective of caliber.

That is one of the issues I have with (some) long range marksmen; too much emphasis on BCs & MV and not enough consideration for terminal performance.

Just my opinion. LB

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

JDJones,

I have built several 6mm-06 rifle with barrels up to 30" in length and I have yet to see one of my customers get anywhere near 3700 fps.

They average in the 3500 fps range, perhaps into the mid 3500 range with top loads. These were with either Kreiger or Lilja 3 groove barrels.

Your +3700 fps load seems extremely fast for the 6mm-06. Hell, thats 257 Wby levels.

I assume that since it was a 107 gr bullet that it was the SMK. How was that bullet grouping at these velocities. I have a 6mm-284 fast twist with a 30" Lilja and filled to the base of the neck this case is for all practical purposes identical to the 06 version. My rifle is throated to seat the base of the bullet even with the case mouth. I did get up to 3600 fps with this rifle but pressure was far more then it should have been so I dropped down to 3475 and have been happy ever since with the 107 gr SMK.

What twist and load were you using to get +3700 fps and how many firings were you getting on brass.

Just curious about the secrets to this level of performance in the 6mm-06.

Personally, in a 30" barrel I would say the 6.5-06 AI could play with possibly 3800 fps with the 95 gr A-Max with workable pressures as it is nothing more then a 25-06 AI with a 0.007" fatter bullet. The 25-06 AI will certainlynot get you 4000 with a 95 to 100 gr pill, not even in a 30" barrel.

Hell, my 257 Allen Mag only gets 4100 fps with a 100 gr bullet in its 30" barrel, you may be on to something here!!!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[James Jones]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

My 6-06 was built by and older fella in south MS named
Carl Bills. As for the loads to get the max velocities they were real hot only getting 2 good reloads the third was starting to get loose primers. The barrel was a 1-12 twist 28" Hart which is the reason for the extreme pressures , trying to get the bullet to stabilize , tried the 105A-max , 107 SMK and the 95gr Bergers all to no avail just diden't have enough twist. After finaly getting the 87gr V-maxes to shoot accurately the barrel was shot out , got maybe 300 good shots out of it.
All this was during the time in my life when I was reloading to get speed as that was all that mattered , I guess I can chalk it up to fools luck.
I'll see if I can dig out some of my old load logs and see what the charges I had were

 

[Fiftydriver]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

JDJones,

That explains things a little bit better.

Why did you get the 1-12 twist for the heavier bullets or was that barrel on the rifle when you got it?

A 70 gr Ballistic Tip with that rifle would have made a hell of a fast hot rod and probably very accurate as well. I believe Hvywt8 is getting right at 4000 fps with his 28.5" 6mm-06 with decent groups /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif!!

Good Shooting!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[James Jones]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

Wait ,hold the press , I suffer from CRS !!!

uppon looking at my old load log my top velocity was just at 3700fps and most loads running at 3500 I must be getting confused with a 22-250 or something anyhow my absolute max volocity was with a charge of 58grs of R-22 and a 107gr SMK velocity was 3703 for two shots and the note says "Scarry !!" probly the reason for only two shots . Sorry to all the the incorrect info

Well Kirby at the time I was only 18 and the only thing that mattered was speed the gunsmith told me that I could get more velocity with a 1-12 than a 1-8 and it would surely be fast enough to keep the bullet stabill- Wrong !! but at that time I was young and ignorant to the long range shooting world and its tricks , I thought that BC stood for Be-Cause , you should hear about the gobs of money I threw at a custom Wby MarkV in 308 Warbird to try to get 3800fps with a 180gr BT !! more scarry stuff.

Anyway my these days my two pet rounds are the 308 and 243Ai its amazing what one can learn after loosing thousands of dollars.
Live and learn

 

[LB]

Re: Fastest, Flattest \'06 action cartridge

What's a load log? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm a slob, in that regard. I have so many old reloading manuals with notations in the margins, or the back cover, or (rarely) in the spaces provided.

However, my favorite place to log my midnight loads, before a big hunt, is on the walls of my shop. Thirty years in this current location. Scribbled notes; no pattern, rhyme or reason. If I ever move, transport will be a problem. The bright side: good excuse not to paint.

Good hunting. LB