Eradicate the Wolf???!

[mtmuley]

Unfortunately, mtmuley I can say the same about you. It is sad really. This forum needs a lot more moderation.

Okey dokey. You are correct about the moderation at least. Hope you tag a wolf. I'm gonna be doing my **** best here in the Root of Montana. Out. And then I see where you are from. SMH. mtmuley

 

[TG-5150]

Too bad all of us r divided over all this. That's exactly what all the extremists want.
So do we band together and figure all this out, from flint knappers to long range lazer shooters ?
Chit... a little speech and debate and the victory is theirs. I bet a few of the bass turds are viewing what we type right now.
So a we got some choices, we can all pull it together and save our heritagal right to hunt, trap and maybe even fish.
Or we can be divided and let them win.
As far as moderation goes..... I think the Majesterium of this forum does better than most forums....
Watch out for the low post members that come in get everything swirling. Crap, I bet there are several members with more than one "stage name" on forums like this one.
Heck, maybe a parvovirus or distemper outbreak will occur in an area near YOU.

 

[Paparock]

Too bad all of us r divided over all this. That's exactly what all the extremists want.
So do we band together and figure all this out, from flint knappers to long range lazer shooters ?
Chit... a little speech and debate and the victory is theirs. I bet a few of the bass turds are viewing what we type right now.
So a we got some choices, we can all pull it together and save our heritagal right to hunt, trap and maybe even fish.
Or we can be divided and let them win.
As far as moderation goes..... I think the Majesterium of this forum does better than most forums....
Watch out for the low post members that come in get everything swirling. Crap, I bet there are several members with more than one "stage name" on forums like this one.
Heck, maybe a parvovirus or distemper outbreak will occur in an area near YOU.

We should be more united however it is hard when someone calls your posts stupid, ignorant, and to STFU if you do not follow their script on the forum.

 

[Gcan]

What is your suggestion? Something like we just need to take matters in our own hands and shoot them all.

It's this kind of stuff that makes us look stupid and bitter. Not to mention it won't work. Now if your solution is to create a giant sportsman and agriculture lobby that has large sums of money to influence lawmakers. That could be worth listening to.

I'm not bitter at all. I'm not angry with the anti gun/hunting groups. I don't know the solution. I do know that yelling "fire" does not require you also manage fighting the fire. This is on us. Somebody in this country owns arguably 300 million firearms. It's a likley safe assumption those folks would like to keep them. Otherwise its also their right to give them up. With 100,000,000 gun owners one might reasonably think we could find common cause and act as one. Case in point. Jim Zumbo is a great guy. Amazing hunting advocate. (lousy firsherman) and while he was a devote hunter he also stated that their was no place for black guns because they were not for hunting. The reintroduction of wolves is a direct threat to hunting camouflaged in wildlife conservation geared directly at hunting. Anything that limits hunting effects gun ownership.

For us to be effective I think we need to first accept that while I may not shoot ARs (i do) or semi auto pistols(i do), or use a bow or a muzzle loader or like 3-gun, its all one kettle of fish. I'm as adamant and quick to defend a person's right to do something I don't or wouldn't do, as I am my own. And again, therein lies the problem. While we generally go about doing whichever parts of hunting and shooting and gun ownership we enjoy, and are each prepared to fight our own fight, those who would take it all from us are legion. They have only one fight. It may look to be discconnected radicalism but in its myriad parts it is just one thing.

 

[Gcan]

We should be more united however it is hard when someone calls your posts stupid, ignorant, and to STFU if you do not follow their script on the forum.

That's right. I learned a long time ago that my opinion is just that. It is no more valid than anyone's with one caviat. If you have an opinion it should be based in fact not feelings. If you are going to express a position be able to defend it factually or logically without being outraged or insulted when questioned. While we should certainly avoid insulting each other, we should also feel free to challange or simply ask a proponent for a factual explination. Example: If the cruxt of your argument eventually falls to "Its Gods plan" you might ought to be prepared to explore that further.

 

[KyCarl]

I just read an article about the Maasai using Furadan on cattle killing lions?
They took their livelihood/existence into their own hands and decided to fight back?
I'm not saying it's right..but they were getting no help at all from their government.

 

[Gcan]

I recently made friends with a fella who used to be part of PETA and another group who tried to get land closed by claiming there was native american artifacts there. I cant remember the groups name. He told me that as a group they would plant fake arrowheads and make fake photos to show hunters doing illegal things. They would take this faked info to colleges and politicians to get their way. He is now a hunter and conservationist after seeing the ethics of these groups. I would just echo that the people who push these environmental issues have extremists that will do whatever it takes to shutdown land from hunting and show hunting in an evil light. So just be aware these people are cunning. Just my 2 copper pennies.

Yes. The ends justify the means. I did some real estate development. In the People's Republic of Ma when you permits are pending it is common for greenies to report that they were on YOUR land and while there they spotted a spotted turtle or salamander. As long as they are willing to sign the affidavit, your project comes to a halt while a sympathetic Environmental Agency does a full property audit. (Sometimes a year or more) There are credible incidents where these lunatics actually transplant those very protected spiecies they are so concerned for on to your property because God is on their side. And these are the people we are engaged with. Any lie, any act is justified in pursuit of the result. I joined this thread because the entire wolf subject is exactly this. We hunters argued for years that sound game management required hunting lest populations exceed carrying capacity. It was our own argument that, as man had eliminated the apex predators who had contibuted to population management that gave rise to the reintroduction of apex predators. This was not done to manage populations. All game species in America had been on the rise since the 50s as a result of hunting. This was done to eliminate the argument that hunting was not merely a right but also necessary. You bring in enough wolves and coyotes and hunting as a game management tool ceases to be a credible argument. It also results in declines in those populations, but the Antis don't care about that. Its a necessary means to an end.

 

[Deleted member 107796]

Ok, this post was incredible to just get some views and perspectives. Good is good enough and there are some very correct views about invasive species, where the need to hunt and control is clear and where legislation can be a bad thing.

If possible, I see the need for less public excoriation here, especially at this site, based on differing views that we may not fully understand and yet, feel the need to respond negatively to. I say we flesh out our words vs try to match wits or feel threatened. Hunting is real, universal and I'll write is as it's Sunday... it's sacred. Let's keep it at that level. cheers

 

[Gcan]

To get back to the purpose of this thread. In my opinion there is simply no logical or scientific argument that can be made to justify the wolf or any pack predators in the lower 48. For the same reason we do not need wagon wheels or buggy whips any longer, we do not NEED wolves. Nature does not need wolves. Does anyone think the elk objects to hunting but is happier at being ripped apart while knowing it is fulfilling the natural order of things? Dead is dead. I have tried to read all of the posts and have yet to find a single reasoned argument for wolves. For those who just think God wants them or that wolves provide an answer to unbalance, man is the cause of and answer to unbalance. And as for God, he is God. If it was important to him, I believe we would be hip deep in wolves like the Egyptians were in frogs and locust. Period. There is no going back to 50,000 years ago. From the first time man set foot on North America or Asia or Africa his presence affected nature. When gun toting white men decided to populate North America the idea that nature was still a force for balance evaporated. The very idea that we can somehow restore a natural system that 500 years ago depended entirely on our absence is childish. Yes, we can right some wrongs. We can introduce Peregrine Falcons into our cities to control pigeons. We created the pigeon problem entirely where no centralized native populations previously existed and no predators had been necessary. We also own the zebra clam and lamprey eel. But as Ive stated, when it comes to game species, man is nature's apex predator. We always have been. That was God's plan too. Or if you believe in evolution then our ascension was inevitable. The wolf is unnecessary and out of balance in this world, as much as a T-Rex would be today. What people like to refer to as nature or balance in 2018 is a synonym for "Zoo". America is a zoo from sea to shining sea. None of it is real. It is all contrived, cultivated and managed. There are fences in zoos for a reason. We don't put the buffalo, or humans, in with the lions for a reason. We all intuitively understand that. Maybe is a scale or proportion thing that makes it hard to accept, but no matter how you look at it, America, and our very world is a game preserve. Man's very presence is anathema to "Natural Nature". This may sound clinical and cynical; perhaps it is. We have elk and moose walking our streets and deer eating our shrubs because we made it so. We manage it to be so. How can we introduce wolves into Yellow Stone and not see the outcome? We don't allow hunting there, yet proponents expect those wolves will remain on the reservation? Unless we can teach wolves to read and respect our laws, or perhaps take birth control it is just plain arrogant to think we can use them as a tool, or that the very artificial manicured natural world we have created can abide them. They only thing we can be assured of is that wolves will act according to their nature, which is not our nature. Wolves and coyotes will move to and go where they like. They will kill whatever makes survival possible for them with the least risk and they will have no consideration for us or anything else. Wolves are not party to human cultural standards or conventions. And that is as it should be. Anyone wishing a world where all critters are cuddly, or wanting to lay down with the beasts should get to heaven as quickly as possible. I hear it's all the rage there.


I'm out.

 

[middleofnowhere]

Bottom line, I'm a taxpayer, hence a public land owner. I want the wolf and grizzly on my land. If the US doesn't engage in an eradication campaign using poison like in the past, the wolf is here to stay.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

To get back to the purpose of this thread. In my opinion there is simply no logical or scientific argument that can be made to justify the wolf or any pack predators in the lower 48. For the same reason we do not need wagon wheels or buggy whips any longer, we do not NEED wolves. Nature does not need wolves. Does anyone think the elk objects to hunting but is happier at being ripped apart while knowing it is fulfilling the natural order of things? Dead is dead. I have tried to read all of the posts and have yet to find a single reasoned argument for wolves. For those who just think God wants them or that wolves provide an answer to unbalance, man is the cause of and answer to unbalance. And as for God, he is God. If it was important to him, I believe we would be hip deep in wolves like the Egyptians were in frogs and locust. Period. There is no going back to 50,000 years ago. From the first time man set foot on North America or Asia or Africa his presence affected nature. When gun toting white men decided to populate North America the idea that nature was still a force for balance evaporated. The very idea that we can somehow restore a natural system that 500 years ago depended entirely on our absence is childish. Yes, we can right some wrongs. We can introduce Peregrine Falcons into our cities to control pigeons. We created the pigeon problem entirely where no centralized native populations previously existed and no predators had been necessary. We also own the zebra clam and lamprey eel. But as Ive stated, when it comes to game species, man is nature's apex predator. We always have been. That was God's plan too. Or if you believe in evolution then our ascension was inevitable. The wolf is unnecessary and out of balance in this world, as much as a T-Rex would be today. What people like to refer to as nature or balance in 2018 is a synonym for "Zoo". America is a zoo from sea to shining sea. None of it is real. It is all contrived, cultivated and managed. There are fences in zoos for a reason. We don't put the buffalo, or humans, in with the lions for a reason. We all intuitively understand that. Maybe is a scale or proportion thing that makes it hard to accept, but no matter how you look at it, America, and our very world is a game preserve. Man's very presence is anathema to "Natural Nature". This may sound clinical and cynical; perhaps it is. We have elk and moose walking our streets and deer eating our shrubs because we made it so. We manage it to be so. How can we introduce wolves into Yellow Stone and not see the outcome? We don't allow hunting there, yet proponents expect those wolves will remain on the reservation? Unless we can teach wolves to read and respect our laws, or perhaps take birth control it is just plain arrogant to think we can use them as a tool, or that the very artificial manicured natural world we have created can abide them. They only thing we can be assured of is that wolves will act according to their nature, which is not our nature. Wolves and coyotes will move to and go where they like. They will kill whatever makes survival possible for them with the least risk and they will have no consideration for us or anything else. Wolves are not party to human cultural standards or conventions. And that is as it should be. Anyone wishing a world where all critters are cuddly, or wanting to lay down with the beasts should get to heaven as quickly as possible. I hear it's all the rage there.


I'm out.

All well and good, but seems like a bunch of steam. We are well past whether or not we should have wolves. We have them, Pandora's box is open. Fact that seems to get missed is they were always here and increasing in numbers without any help with reintroduction. This was happening despite the 3S movement. I ran into a big black wolf on the south west MT border while bow hunting years before the reintroduction effort. They were well on their way to Yellowstone then.

This notion that anyone who has a thought other than, "Kill them all by any means necessary", is somehow aligned with the so called environmentalist is insulting and shallow. Going on and on about how they have no right or place to exist is counter productive to trying to limit their numbers. No matter how well articulated the "kill them all" stance is, it makes the sportsmen look like idiots.

Another thing that should be ignored and not repeated is this notion that all the game animals are gone and in there place is nothing left but wolves. Wolves don't live where there is no game. It is a dumb statement and makes us all look dumb.

I am fairly sure that the vast majority of folks reading these wolf threads, (and participating in them) have never seen one, let alone tried to hunt them. To my knowledge the quotas are set high enough that they have yet to be met. I have seen many of them. I shot one and have missed on two other chances. Lets see if we can fill the quotas. We get to the point of filling the quotas and there is still too many then we can argue for greater quotas. Unless as a nation it is decided to eradicate the wolf it isn't going to happen. That is just a fact. Doesn't make me an environmental whacko.

 

[L.Sherm]

I have read through this whole thread and respectfully disagree with some of your comments Steve.
One is calling sportsman an idiot no matter what there beliefs are, we are all entitled to our opinion.
I for one have become very sceptical of our Montana F@G over all this wolf and grizzly bear stuff and I'm going to point out some examples. This is gonna be long winded so I apologize. About 4 years ago I was hunting the cabinet wilderness on my way home there were 2 U.S.F.S officials parked in a wide spot on a Saturday I stopped and talked with them briefly and as I drove away I wondered what they were doing on a Saturday anyway never gave it much thought until the next mourning in the fresh snow overnight a big ole griz stepped into the road right were they were sitting and walked up the road for 2 miles now I know what they were doing obviously tracking it but never even warned me.
Another instance Griz swam the Flathead lake and stayed on an island all summer were people recreate but no warning to the public and they new about it until it swam back to the mainland then a article in the interlake about it.
The Griz they trapped at McGregor lake this spring when it started getting into trouble that they knew was there for 2 yours but failed to warn people.
So who takes priority peoples safty or the griz or wolf I think they made there choice this is were I'm having alot of problem with.this. This past Feb I went to the bi-annual F@G meetings in Kalispel like I do every year and there might have been 12 people there I was shocked until I thought about it people have lost so much trust in our F@G that they dont even come to the meetings that once were a packed house.
Some say give up the wolf are here to stay we I'm not if we all thought like that there would be no U.S.A.
This is my opinion and I have always believed actions speak louder than words and our F@G have spoken by there actions and have lost all trust in the sportsmen of N.W Montana.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I have read through this whole thread and respectfully disagree with some of your comments Steve.
One is calling sportsman an idiot no matter what there beliefs are, we are all entitled to our opinion.
I for one have become very sceptical of our Montana F@G over all this wolf and grizzly bear stuff and I'm going to point out some examples. This is gonna be long winded so I apologize. About 4 years ago I was hunting the cabinet wilderness on my way home there were 2 U.S.F.S officials parked in a wide spot on a Saturday I stopped and talked with them briefly and as I drove away I wondered what they were doing on a Saturday anyway never gave it much thought until the next mourning in the fresh snow overnight a big ole griz stepped into the road right were they were sitting and walked up the road for 2 miles now I know what they were doing obviously tracking it but never even warned me.
Another instance Griz swam the Flathead lake and stayed on an island all summer were people recreate but no warning to the public and they new about it until it swam back to the mainland then a article in the interlake about it.
The Griz they trapped at McGregor lake this spring when it started getting into trouble that they knew was there for 2 yours but failed to warn people.
So who takes priority peoples safty or the griz or wolf I think they made there choice this is were I'm having alot of problem with.this. This past Feb I went to the bi-annual F@G meetings in Kalispel like I do every year and there might have been 12 people there I was shocked until I thought about it people have lost so much trust in our F@G that they dont even come to the meetings that once were a packed house.
Some say give up the wolf are here to stay we I'm not if we all thought like that there would be no U.S.A.
This is my opinion and I have always believed actions speak louder than words and our F@G have spoken by there actions and have lost all trust in the sportsmen of N.W Montana.

Not exactly sure what you mean. I never called anyone an idiot. I did say that some say things that make us all look that way. So if I came across that way I did not mean to. My apologies.

I think to the rest of what you said is you would like the F&G to put out some sort of public address notifying of the whereabouts of predators? Or you would like the predators removed whenever found?

I agree with meeting attendance. I should go but like most, we are all so busy that I think we don't go.

 

[HARPERC]

Well I thought I could quit this thread, but I was thinking it would die by itself.

From this week: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...back-in-us-supreme-court-ruling-idUSKCN1NW1P3

https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/2018/12/15/urgent-plea-cal-fires-exiting-chief/2286637002/

It ain't about wolves, frogs, spotted owls, seals and salmon, jaguars, ferrets, martens, caribou, or whether Columbian Whitetails are a separate species, or a malnourished scab land variant, or when is it a Bull Trout, not a Dolly Varden.

It's about money, political power, and an agenda seeking to control every aspect of our behavior, and property, both public and private. In the California article, it's subtle, but the recommendation that is essentially the state wresting control of development from local communities, and ultimately property owners. Take a trip to their DMV if you wish to see what getting a building permit for your property will look like.

It's about having a stranglehold on rural communities, and businesses.

https://lmtribune.com/opinion/riggi...cle_0982ac17-242d-5de3-a9fa-4db01f5d2969.html

Eradicate the wolf? Notice how the wolf issue changed when a mid term election sent members to congress proposing cutting the USWS budget?

A big win? That game was already over, the agency saved it's budget, and redirected their energy to other causes. You should as well.