Energy or bullet diameter most important?

[Radman]

This is an intriguing discussion. I hope it remains productive.

Unfortunately, this, like so many other discussions (favorite elk chambering/round, Dodge vs Ford vs Chevy, etc) brings participants emotions into the matter.

In fact, for this very reason many great contributors have distanced themselves from more frequently participating in discussions (or participating at all). Very unfortunate and highly irritating.

People (often times those not used to actual discussions) too often connect their opinions with their emotions. This utterly derails any useful discussion. Every time.

Many people simply do not have the capacity to consider the notion that other peoples ideas could be correct and that they potentially may be wrong. It is academic immaturity and illustrates a stunted intellect.

Very well said.
Facts count.
Requested opinions count. Emotion = Zero. If I don't like your favorite brand of gun & you don't like my brand of ammo & someone else doesn't like our bullet's ballistics - so what? Thats' personal preference & no one is likely to change that no matter how much bashing, bragging, lying or quoting of facts happens. This forum is a wonderful place for information & there are MANY nice, smart, experienced folks here who are willing to share. Nearly all are mature! This IS a great forum!
Without naming names there are a few here whom I REALLY RESPECT. They are knowledgeable, intelligent, factual, polite, mature & oftentimes funny... but NOT at other's expense. They know a troll & they know when to ignore an impending "train wreck". (It is however often entertaining & sometimes even educational to follow a "train wreck" post )
Many, like me, often express their opinion. I think that's fine. Opinion often comes from experience. I try to never force my opinion in others here. Lots of nice folks here & I certainly appreciate the privilege of being accepted here.
Now for the third half of our show....

 

[Pacecount]

If you agree that it takes 1500 FT lbs of energy to kill an elk and 1000 ft lbs to kill a mule deer…. Then the energy in large part will define how far away you can be with a given load to make an ethical kill.

Ie.
* 6.5 CM 143 Gr ELDX carrys enough energy to kill an elk out to 350 yards.

*7mm RM 180gr VLD carry's enough energy to kill an elk at 800 yards.

With that said, energy is not.a replacement for a bad shot. If you dont put the bullet in the boiler room nothing else matters.

 

[Teri Anne]

Let's say you are hunting for elk sized and smaller game and are targeting 750 yards or less. Would you say it would be more important for lethal, ethical kill to be the size of the bullet (just an example 30 caliber vs 25 caliber) or the ballistic energy the bullet gives out to that range (just an example 1200 vs 1800 lbs regardless of bullet size)?

I am trying to leave this somewhat open ended to avoid only comments from those who love a certain caliber, but I am considering a future rifle and am hopeful with plenty of practice I could possible do what I listed above. So many calibers out there, I just want to start with the right base and get proficient from there.

Thanks in advance.

Well this is a somewhat loaded question and reading through some of the responses and I am simply amazed at some of the thoughts. First of all there is a big difference between a Pronghorn which adults probably average around 125 pounds (Yes there are some that my weigh more but for the sake of argument I am using 125 as an average adult size.) This makes them smaller than the average adult White Tail Deer which for argument sake may be 150 pounds. Moving on up to Elk compared to either the Pronghorn, White Tale or Mule deer are huge. Again a good average for a bull elk is probably 500 to 600 pounds, maybe more. Is there a one size fits all here? Probably not.

The size comparison chart here, obtained from a USDA website gives a pretty good size comparison between deer, elk, horses and moose. Unfortunately they left out Pronghorn which would be smaller than the deer shown here. All of the animals shown here over the years have been successfully hunted with the good old reliable Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 chambered for the almost ancient but still relevant 30-30 Winchester. All of the above are still popular and even still sold today.

I have read responses about velocity, energy, size of wound channel as well as bleeding out quickly. All are somewhat relevant with the exception of bleeding out quickly. If the animal needs to bleed out quickly it means that the shot has been misplaced and has not hit the vital area where the heart and lungs are. If one shoots any of these animals in the heart/lung area it will either drop in place or not go very farbefoe finding itself dead. It appears to me, and correct me if I am wrong, which I am sure some will, that the main purpose of this discussion is how to mitigate poor marksmanship by getting larger and larger bullets that go faster and hit harder. Or mitigate the inability to actually hunt the animal in question, finding the animal and getting close enough to make an ethical kill shot. Instead it seems that laying in wait to ambush them at what you call long range with questionable precision. You are seeking a bullet that has sufficient energy to cause a large wound channel so that possibly the animal can bleed out leaving a huge blood trail because you did not really make a good kill shot. Any and all of the animals shown in the comparison above can be killed with a .223 or .243 if you put the bullet in the kill zone and take out the heart and/or lungs. A teeny tiny hole will do just that. One does not have to have large wound channels, just a wound channel in the right spot. For the record I do not condone hunting any of these animals with a .223 but I know there are those of you who do. Let the fur fly!!

 

[driftwood]

Let's say you are hunting for elk sized and smaller game and are targeting 750 yards or less. Would you say it would be more important for lethal, ethical kill to be the size of the bullet (just an example 30 caliber vs 25 caliber) or the ballistic energy the bullet gives out to that range (just an example 1200 vs 1800 lbs regardless of bullet size)?

I am trying to leave this somewhat open ended to avoid only comments from those who love a certain caliber, but I am considering a future rifle and am hopeful with plenty of practice I could possible do what I listed above. So many calibers out there, I just want to start with the right base and get proficient from there.

Thanks in advance.

Bullet placement is the most important factor. Bell of Africa was able to harvest thousands of elephants with a small caliber 7 mm, something like a 7-57. If you are shooting at distance it all boils down to bullet construction ft lbs of energy and placing the bullet where is Will end in a humane kill.

 

[Petey308]

If the animal needs to bleed out quickly it means that the shot has been misplaced and has not hit the vital area where the heart and lungs are. If one shoots any of these animals in the heart/lung area it will either drop in place or not go very farbefoe finding itself dead.

I agree with the main point you're trying to make. However, a heart and/or lung shot on its own does not kill the animal immediately, nor does it cause it to drop on the spot. Shutting down the CNS causes it to drop on the spot. Hitting the heart and/or lungs allows the animal to bleed out, which means loss of blood pressure, loss of oxygen getting to all the organs and tissues, etc, causing a stroke, etc, etc, etc.

Hitting lungs also causes asphyxiation, so even if the heart is still pumping, that blood is pumping out of the wounded lungs and oxygen is not getting into the blood cells.

So the animal is not going very far because it succumbs to the effects of the wounding.

Animals do not always drop on the spot when hit in the vitals and it doesn't mean shot placement was poor if they do not drop on the spot.

 

[Majestic 6.5]

These discussions ALWAYS have me chuckling.
Energy is a poor example of killing power, in my humble opinion.
I can propel a baseball at the same energy level as a 25 cal 115/120gr bullet, it is a poor killer, even poorer at wounding at whatever it hits.
A bullet without velocity is no better at killing as is a baseball.
Bullets kill by destroying tissue, blood vessels and organs. The energy transfer, as many call it, does very little, as it is transferred so quickly as to have very little time to do anything. Even shooting a water filled balloon, the reaction is so quick that the balloon and water barely move from where they were placed. Sure, the water reacts violently, it has to, it can't be compressed.
Also, the larger a bullet is, the LESS penetration it will have the FASTER it impacts at.
I find SD a far better calculator of what penetration a bullet MAY give, which goes hand in hand with it's construction.
I would have no qualms shooting an Elk within 600yrds with a 25 cal 115gr Partition from a 25-06, a 250 Savage would have me backing off to within 300yrds tops.
Obviously, the higher BC bullets are a better option, but, sometimes the higher BC bullets aren't up to the tasks we put them too.
Anyway, that's my take on these debates. Have NEVER seen energy paly a part in killing power, EVER.

Cheers.
gun)

I'm going to try Speer Impact and Norma Oryx on test mediums because of both being thin jacketed and bonded, one for a brush bullet and the other for range. Rapid expanding projectiles that hold together as they punch threw.

 

[Petey308]

It appears to me, and correct me if I am wrong, which I am sure some will, that the main purpose of this discussion is how to mitigate poor marksmanship by getting larger and larger bullets that go faster and hit harder. Or mitigate the inability to actually hunt the animal in question, finding the animal and getting close enough to make an ethical kill shot. Instead it seems that laying in wait to ambush them at what you call long range with questionable precision. You are seeking a bullet that has sufficient energy to cause a large wound channel so that possibly the animal can bleed out leaving a huge blood trail because you did not really make a good kill shot.

I do not believe the main purpose here is to find a way to get around marksmanship. The point is trying to figure out what types of things produce the most reliable and consistent quick and clean kills- even with perfect shot placement. And this is because even with perfect placement, we still see animals run and not be recovered.

Energy, in regards to going to work after impact, is only a potential. You can calculate the energy based on mass and velocity, etc, but it should be clear by now that that figure only matters if the particular bullet can convert that energy into adequate hydraulic force. Not all bullets can do this well. Sometimes the bullet needs more or less starting mass to do this well. Sometimes it needs more or less impact velocity to do this well.

That's where this discussion becomes productive. When we can discuss these things and learn how to select the right bullet for our particular needs, what velocity range will work best, and where to place the shot based on those things, we are setup for success. Each bullet is different, and then each TYPE of bullet can change what we need to do with it depending on caliber size and weight. A 109gr .243" ELDM impacting at 2700fps into an elk shoulder is not going to work exactly the same as a 168gr .308" ELDM impacting a pronghorn shoulder at 1700fps. They're both ELDMs though, right? This is why learning about mass, energy, bullet construction, and overall terminal ballistics can help us all in our quest for success.

 

[264WM]

My point of view is dead is dead and the critter does not care about either. Shot placement is more important.

 

[memtb]

Teri Anne, I agree with most of your comment, with a couple of exceptions.

Animals shot through the lungs, while generally considered lethal, do not always cause near immediate death …..nor are lethal! Sometime, the animal can survive a lung shot and survive…..depending upon the amount of damage done.

Obviously, nothing makes up for poor marksmanship! But, as you clearly stated, pertaining to the use of a .223 on big game, larger bullets do offer a greater degree of success!

So, where we draw the line on cartridge selection is solely dependent upon the user! We can't assume that someone who chooses a large caliber, magnum cartridge simply does so to make up for poor shot placement. If the shooter can accurately place the properly constructed bullet, at high velocity, and of a larger diameter and mass….it will generally perform better than a smaller bullet. The bullet previously describe, can also offer the hunter the ability to take shots not possible with the smaller diameter bullet of less mass….whereas several feet of tissue penetration is required to reach and destroy the vitals!

If the hunter "will never" attempt a shot outside of the capabilities of his/her chosen cartridge ….even the lowly 22 LR can cleanly harvest the majority of our big game animals! The larger, higher hrosepower cartridges simply expand the window! memtb

 

[memtb]

My point of view is dead is dead and the critter does not care about either. Shot placement is more important.

Definitely……with the proper bullet! You may have perfect placement…..however, the bullet must reach and destroy vitals to be terminally effective! memtb

 

[Petey308]

My point of view is dead is dead and the critter does not care about either. Shot placement is more important.

Sure, but we're not asking the critters .

Also, there's more to achieving reliable and consistent quick and clean kills than shot placement alone. There just is. You are never going to get perfect shot placement every time (not if you hunt a lot). So that means you need to have more working for you than shot placement alone. There are many bullets out there that are very forgiving to small shot placement errors. An FMJ, for example, is not very forgiving. They can work, even on large game, but perfect shot placement is extremely crucial, and is luck. I think it's obvious there are many other bullets that are more forgiving than an FMJ, and that's my point.

Shot placement is absolutely important. Stacking the odds in your favor with a more forgiving bullet is important too if you want reliability and consistency.

Just wanted to clarify this. Sorry if it comes off as nitpicking, as that was not my intent.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Teri Anne,

From reading your last post I got the idea those who use "big" guns can't shoot them accurately. A few years ago my Klienguenther K14 was not heavy at all. One year I decided to use it for deer. To make sure I was still proficient with it I took it to the range. I fired three offhand at 100 yards. The group was 6". Then I sat down and fired three at 300 yards. Again the group was 6". Someone asked, "Well how accurate is it from the bench.?" I set up a target at 500 yards and fired three more. The group was 2 1/4". The guy exclaimed, "That's a squirrel gun!"

That rifle weighs eleven pounds and is too much for me. Now I use either a 7 1/4 pound (8mm Mag) rifle or the big one at eight pounds (7RUM). Either is quite deadly.

 

[jessej]

I mostly hunt with a lower energy weapon these days. .299 caliber. 425 grain. It's only making a little over 100 lbs of energy at the "muzzle". But if you put it in the boiler room of big game, they all die quick. Most of the time within 4 seconds.
Shot placement is VERY important with it

 

[L2land]

There has been a lot of interesting technical data shared throughout this discussion for sure. After all of that it seems to be that we are hoping to uncover a formula for how likely it is that a miss will still kill. The recipe for the bullet and chambering is to get your projectile into the vitals from the shot at hand. That may be close or far and it may be going through bone, muscle, or ideally just a little skin behind the shoulder. The bow hunting portion of me has never contemplated if there is a combination of broadhead and arrow weight that would kill with poor placement. It's all about what do you need to put it through the boilermaker. You can take a high shoulder shot and break down an animal while also doing enough damage to the lungs to kill it with the right gun and bullet. That involves many more variables than doing what you have to to put it on the heart. Sometimes that means not taking the shot until it gives you what you need. I lost the first bull elk I ever shot with a bow because he took a step just as I let the arrow go from 30 yds broadside. Clean pass through but it was high and back in the lungs. He clotted up and quit bleeding and was never seen or found again after looking for three days. Trust me, without going into it, I put all the effort I had into finding it. The point of mentioning that is it changed my perspective on critical shot placement no matter what you are shooting. The next bull I sent an arrow at had a three blade hole through the center of its heart and crashed in the trees 40 yds away when his body ran out of blood pressure. I'm not saying heart is the only way just that placement is numero uno.