Do I need to neck turn?

Bart you're taking things pretty literal, but that's ok.
Maybe I should have said "Expand the neck .000001 over bullet/brass surface profile"? Or, "expand the neck a real **** small amount"?
TracySes23, I never tied anything to actual bullet diameter or tolerances. I didn't say expand a 24cal neck to .243001 to release a bullet..
I think you're missing the point completely.

What's important is that you understand that bullet release has nothing to do with neck/bullet interface friction(unless cold welded). That cases which are SS media or ultrasonically cleaned shoot no differently than uncleaned cases. There is no load adjustment based directly on 'pull force' changes from this.
Now, given control over friction, pull force can correlate well enough to grip force. I know this and rely on it. But I don't take any meaning of it beyond that.
 
Bart you're taking things pretty literal, but that's ok.
Well, if the literal translation ain't correct, then neither was the message.

Still waiting for an explanation as to how case necks expand any amount over bullet diameter towards the case mouth and the bullet stays still until the high pressure gas exits at the case mouth.

What about cartridges whose inside neck diameters are 2 to 3 thousandths larger than the bullets which are glued in with no neck tension at all?

Do cartridges with well-crimped case mouths into deep cannelures let the gas flow forward around the bullet then bend the case mouth out straight before the bullet starts to move?
 
Well, if the literal translation ain't correct, then neither was the message.

Still waiting for an explanation as to how case necks expand any amount over bullet diameter towards the case mouth and the bullet stays still until the high pressure gas exits at the case mouth.

What about cartridges whose inside neck diameters are 2 to 3 thousandths larger than the bullets which are glued in with no neck tension at all?

Do cartridges with well-crimped case mouths into deep cannelures let the gas flow forward around the bullet then bend the case mouth out straight before the bullet starts to move?

Bart B , why don't you just drop it and if you don't understand that I'll drive up to Loveland and have that meeting you keep avoiding.
 
Bart you're taking things pretty literal, but that's ok.
Maybe I should have said "Expand the neck .000001 over bullet/brass surface profile"? Or, "expand the neck a real **** small amount"?
TracySes23, I never tied anything to actual bullet diameter or tolerances. I didn't say expand a 24cal neck to .243001 to release a bullet..
I think you're missing the point completely.

What's important is that you understand that bullet release has nothing to do with neck/bullet interface friction(unless cold welded). That cases which are SS media or ultrasonically cleaned shoot no differently than uncleaned cases. There is no load adjustment based directly on 'pull force' changes from this.
Now, given control over friction, pull force can correlate well enough to grip force. I know this and rely on it. But I don't take any meaning of it beyond that.

I'm a bit confused as to why you even mentioned the number .000001, if it wasn't supposed to be tied to something.
It seems to me you don't understand enough, to explain what you want to get your point across to someone.
If it didn't represent inches, exactly what did it represent?
 
I'm a bit confused as to why you even mentioned the number .000001, if it wasn't supposed to be tied to something.
It seems to me you don't understand enough, to explain what you want to get your point across to someone.
If it didn't represent inches, exactly what did it represent?

I think he's already stated it represents a **** small distance of separation.

Are you guys PhD's in the field of nanotechnology?

"Nanotechnology (sometimes shortened to "nanotech") is the manipulation of matter on an atomic and molecular scale. The earliest, widespread description of nanotechnology[1][2] referred to the particular technological goal of precisely manipulating atoms and molecules for fabrication of macroscale products, also now referred to as molecular nanotechnology. A more generalized description of nanotechnology was subsequently established by the National Nanotechnology Initiative, which defines nanotechnology as the manipulation of matter with at least one dimension sized from 1 to 100 nanometers. This definition reflects the fact that quantum mechanical effects are important at this quantum-realm scale, and so the definition shifted from a particular technological goal to a research category inclusive of all types of research and technologies that deal with the special properties of matter that occur below the given size threshold. It is therefore common to see the plural form "nanotechnologies" as well as "nanoscale technologies" to refer to the broad range of research and applications whose common trait is size."

Or perhaps he was talking about these phenomena, which occur when measurements of materials are reduced to the nanoscale:

"Several phenomena become pronounced as the size of the system decreases. These include statistical mechanical effects, as well as quantum mechanical effects, for example the "quantum size effect" where the electronic properties of solids are altered with great reductions in particle size. This effect does not come into play by going from macro to micro dimensions. However, quantum effects can become significant when the nanometer size range is reached, typically at distances of 100 nanometers or less, the so-called quantum realm. Additionally, a number of physical (mechanical, electrical, optical, etc.) properties change when compared to macroscopic systems. One example is the increase in surface area to volume ratio altering mechanical, thermal and catalytic properties of materials. Diffusion and reactions at nanoscale, nanostructures materials and nanodevices with fast ion transport are generally referred to nanoionics. Mechanical properties of nanosystems are of interest in the nanomechanics research. The catalytic activity of nanomaterials also opens potential risks in their interaction with biomaterials.

Materials reduced to the nanoscale can show different properties compared to what they exhibit on a macroscale, enabling unique applications. For instance, opaque substances can become transparent (copper); stable materials can turn combustible (aluminum); insoluble materials may become soluble (gold). A material such as gold, which is chemically inert at normal scales, can serve as a potent chemical catalyst at nanoscales. Much of the fascination with nanotechnology stems from these quantum and surface phenomena that matter exhibits at the nanoscale."

Or another way of putting it - the number .000001 is the amount an average man's beard grows in the time it takes him to raise the razor to his face.

There, I think that makes it all perfectly clear... :)
 
Are you guys PhD's in the field of nanotechnology?
I'm not, but I know some things about what can only be observed by using SEM's to visibly discriminate the perfections and imperfections of nano/micro-scale issues with materials. SEM's can achieve resolution better than 1 nanometer; about 0.00000004 inch.

There's some physics issues I don't quite understand why a bullet would remain fixed in place while the case neck expands (whatever amount) around it as pressure builds up inside the case. For every 100 pounds of pressure per square inch in the case, there's almost 7.5 pounds of force against a seated 30 caliber bullet's back end. How can it stay fixed in place while the case neck expands away from it?
 
I think he's already stated it represents a **** small distance of separation.

Are you guys PhD's in the field of nanotechnology?


Or another way of putting it - the number .000001 is the amount an average man's beard grows in the time it takes him to raise the razor to his face.

There, I think that makes it all perfectly clear... :)

That's a little vague. Since your referencing something that can't be easily measured & is likely a guesstimate at best.

A simpler explanation would be to make a comparison between a piece of cellophane or plastic wrap which normally measures one thousandths of an inch aka .001".

.000001" is 1000 times thinner than .001"

BTW, BartB..... Your math is perfect. It's also an excellent way to simplify clarifying your point and your logic is faultless.
 
I know my math also. It could be stated as 1 millionth. Does it really matter if it's 1 millionth or 1 ten millionth or 1 hundred millionth or 1 billionth. Time to lighten up the atmosphere, is my primary point. I don't know if Bart or Mike is most correct, or completely correct, but I'm pretty sure the interpretation of this number and that distance of separation - down to this level of minutia - is no longer relevant to the subject or concepts being debated.
 
I know my math also. It could be stated as 1 millionth. Does it really matter if it's 1 millionth or 1 ten millionth or 1 hundred millionth or 1 billionth. Time to lighten up the atmosphere, is my primary point. I don't know if Bart or Mike is most correct, or completely correct, but I'm pretty sure the interpretation of this number and that distance of separation - down to this level of minutia - is no longer relevant to the subject or concepts being debated.

Good for you. Consider your back patted. I apologize for ruffling your feathers.
 
There's some physics issues I don't quite understand
It's not a physics issue, or even a conceptual issue. It's your bias towards an incorrect notion combined with contempt for evidence within your reach.
I should say about this "One test equals a thousand expert opinions", and I have provided a test earlier for which I know the results.

why a bullet would remain fixed in place while the case neck expands (whatever amount) around it as pressure builds up inside the case. For every 100 pounds of pressure per square inch in the case, there's almost 7.5 pounds of force against a seated 30 caliber bullet's back end. How can it stay fixed in place while the case neck expands away from it?
Atleast consider that a bullet stays in place BECAUSE it is gripped by a neck, and only for a **** short period of time. There is timing to it, to pressure rise per area, much like a WOODEN stick jammed into a muzzle can lead to a STEEL barrel blowing up(which I'm sure was denied until laughably undeniable). One test...

While pressure is applied to the back of bullets, it is also applied to a much larger case area. The case is expanding first, way ahead of any bullet forced out of a gripping neck theory. Not much at first, but it don't take much. The case expands moreso where it is thinner than thicker, peeling it open nearer the bullet than webs, and eventually the case chamber seals first at necks, then shoulder body, and last near webs. When there is so little resistance in bullet grip that pressure applied to bullet base area overcomes static inertia, the bullet moves.

You could keep a neck from expanding by fitting it to this condition, aka bearing into a donut, or just zero neck clearance, and yes, the bullet will eventually overcome normal friction and move. This, provided the gun doesn't come apart, and believe me this will affect pressure beyond the notions you're considering as 'normal'. Put another way, if our loads relied on overcoming normal bullet/neck interference friction(normal seating forces) for bullet release, nothing in reloading, or modern gun build, would be as it is today.

Bottom line: polished necks with higher seating forces shoot exactly the same as fouled necks with way lower seating forces. One test..
 
Good for you. Consider your back patted. I apologize for ruffling your feathers.

You apologized needlessly. My feathers are fine. Now where were we? What does .0000000000000000000000001 mean? Nothing with respect to whether or not the OP should neck turn.
 
you apologized needlessly. My feathers are fine. Now where were we? What does .0000000000000000000000001 mean? Nothing with respect to whether or not the op should neck turn.

1e-25 or if you prefer, one septillionth. Is that what you were asking or were you wanting a different answer?
 
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Bottom line: polished necks with higher seating forces shoot exactly the same as fouled necks with way lower seating forces. One test..
Entirely possible. At the same "muzzle velocity" is what I think you're referring to.

I would like to know the bullet release force for each. I've not done a lot of testing, but the same load recipie and barrel gets more muzzle velocity with higher release force numbers on the bullets.
 
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Tension(actual gripping force), which is springback x area, that is overcome by a load to allow normal bullet release, directly affects MV & tune.
Pull force does not, and you cannot tune a load with it.

A chamber will spike overpressure if the bullet is not fully released, fast enough, from the neck tension gripping it. Rely on a bullet to be forced from an unexpanded neck -from a couple benches away!

Anyway, this was a total hijack of OP's thread, and I should have stayed out of it.
 
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