Brown bear Rifle

[fta0303]

What's my life worth?To you?
25k?!
If a bear gets shot. Goes into the alders. I'm not sending you in. I'm going in. Your staying out. 2 reasons. 1st your safety is paramount to me and my outfitter.
2nd is I do not have to worry about you or the noise created. Meaning if you are not there and I hear a noise I know it's the bear. No second guessing. And I am going to put the finishing shots in it anyways. So I have a difficult time understanding shooting sooner after the initial shot/shots by the hunter vs. me shooting later in the above described scenario ?

Everything I've seen says AK Fish & Game are realists. They think the .30-06 is fine with proper bullets. They also think you need a guide if you don't live up there. The guide is performing his intended function when he shoots. I'd bet he observes you, your shooting capability, and your rifle handling skills and that that figures into how quickly he follows you up.

He's the pro, you're likely a first or second timer. What you are trying to do the first time, he's done tens or hundreds of times. He knows more than you do. His job is very much about protecting you from yourself.

Time comes, no one sane wants to trail up a wounded bear in thick cover. Everything should be done to avoid that situation. That includes your guide putting a bullet in your bear. All the stories about brave men following up "a wounded bear in the alders" are most likely stories about guys who had no other choice. The Air Force found that pilots trained in 3 simulated combat missions were sitting ducks in real combat, but that pilots trained in 10 simulated combat missions were more than competent. That's because there's a lot to know and learn about air combat. I imagine the same truth and the same statistics hold true in bear hunting.

 

[fta0303]

I'm not talking about 3000 fps. I'm talking about terrible penetration out of a 416 ruger. That speed bullet was used because that was all that was available. That doesn't mean it was good

On looking, I find diametrically opposed assessments of Woodleigh bullets. One PH contributor at Africa Hunting does not like them, having experienced blowup using them in larger bores. Those comments date to 2017. On the other side is Nathan Foster at Terminal Ballistics Studies, who thinks well of Woodleigh. The African PH has had the same experience you've had.

From Terminal Ballistics Studies, about Woodleigh bullet in 35 Whelen: "The round nose is also very tough in its own right and has never let me down with regards to penetration, even during torture tests, pushing these bullets well beyond their design parameters. Based on these factors, my personal preference is the round nose bullet… Both the 225 and 250 grain bullets can tackle large bodied game. The light bullet can be especially useful as a general purpose bullet and also for use on large game in rifles that do not boast great speeds with medium to heavy weight bullets. That said, the 250 grain bullet does offer superior performance, especially if it can be driven fast and the hunter stalks close… Woodleigh bullets are designed to produce reliable expansion down to impact velocities of 1800fps. That said, performance does tend to be more dramatic at impact velocities over 2200fps or in a very general manner of speaking, at ranges inside 150 yards. Below 2200fps, it is important to try to aim forwards and break bone. Woodleigh bullets really shine when used in this manner."

Foster's experience with other calibers was that you could push these Woodleigh bullets quite a ways beyond Woodleigh recommendations and still have good results. Foster's statements are based on field performance.

It sounds like you, the PH, and Nathan Foster are talking about two different bullets. QC problems ? Don;t know, would look for comment from Woodleigh...

Much comment on African Hunter about Woodleigh finds them to perform very well even at higher velocities (dating to 2018), but a few do report they're too soft.

 

[Marky_mark]

On looking, I find diametrically opposed assessments of Woodleigh bullets. One PH contributor at Africa Hunting does not like them, having experienced blowup using them in larger bores. Those comments date to 2017. On the other side is Nathan Foster at Terminal Ballistics Studies, who thinks well of Woodleigh. The African PH has had the same experience you've had.

From Terminal Ballistics Studies, about Woodleigh bullet in 35 Whelen: "The round nose is also very tough in its own right and has never let me down with regards to penetration, even during torture tests, pushing these bullets well beyond their design parameters. Based on these factors, my personal preference is the round nose bullet… Both the 225 and 250 grain bullets can tackle large bodied game. The light bullet can be especially useful as a general purpose bullet and also for use on large game in rifles that do not boast great speeds with medium to heavy weight bullets. That said, the 250 grain bullet does offer superior performance, especially if it can be driven fast and the hunter stalks close… Woodleigh bullets are designed to produce reliable expansion down to impact velocities of 1800fps. That said, performance does tend to be more dramatic at impact velocities over 2200fps or in a very general manner of speaking, at ranges inside 150 yards. Below 2200fps, it is important to try to aim forwards and break bone. Woodleigh bullets really shine when used in this manner."

Foster's experience with other calibers was that you could push these Woodleigh bullets quite a ways beyond Woodleigh recommendations and still have good results. Foster's statements are based on field performance.

It sounds like you, the PH, and Nathan Foster are talking about two different bullets. QC problems ? Don;t know, would look for comment from Woodleigh...

have you used them?
Your sure giving a lot of advice, solely based off of google searches?

 

[fta0303]

Everyone learns from someone else, including you, if you think about it. So, I can look for expert opinions, or I can listen to whoever comes along. I try to listen to experts. There's so much to learn in this world that you can't learn it all from hands-on experience. Be grateful that I provide sources that you can check, and that I bring something to the discussion that is worthwhile, from reading the experts. Right now, you wouldn't know that there are two sets of opinions on Woodleigh that don't agree, which likely says good product now having some QC issues. If you don't like it, then attend to my disclaimer and don't read it at all if you can only accept word of mouth.

 

[Marky_mark]

Everyone learns from someone else, including you, if you think about it. So, I can look for expert opinions, or I can listen to whoever comes along. I try to listen to experts. There's so much to learn in this world that you can't learn it all from hands-on experience. Be grateful that I provide sources that you can check, and that I bring something to the discussion that is worthwhile, from reading the experts. Right now, you wouldn't know that there are two sets of opinions on Woodleigh that don't agree, which likely says good product now having some QC issues. If you don't like it, then attend to my disclaimer and don't read it at all if you can only accept word of mouth.

I listen to people who have first hand knowledge
Weatherby award winners, world slam holders, super slam holders, and outfitters
Simple google searches don't hold much weight to me.
Too many people who write the articles your reading, are paid to say positive things about the product. And most of them just aren't that experienced. The hotcore and weld core bullets have their place in Africa. And that place is when you do not want your bullet to exit your target animal. So if your shooting into a herd of Cape buffalo. You don't want to kill what's behind the animal you're aiming at. That's not the case on a brown bear hunt. Maximum expansion as well as penetration are paramount. I shot 2 bison with my 416 with those bullets and the terminal performance was terrible. The other bison I killed was with a 378 wby and barnes ttsx. It died a lot faster, but I was more than happy with the complete pass through the bullet made. I should be on my way back from hunting brown bears in Alaska but unfortunately one of my employees wife was diagnosed with breast cancer so I had to postpone it. I was bringing a 338 ss with ttsx's. I've killed a grizzly with a 6.5 cal and a frames as well

 

[Reemty J]

Mark, i killed a brownie on Kodiak this spring at 178 yards with a 338 rum shooting 210hht @ 3462 fps, bear was quartering towards me bullet went in forward the left front shoulder through ribs, shredded the lungs and exited back right side rib cage 42" penetration. It rocked the bear back, he spun and ran left quartering away, second shot entered left side raking back ribs, breaking 4 going in through lungs out front rib cage, into neck, penetrated length of neck and ended up under the skin behind his right ear, effect was a cartwheel unto his back, dead, 41-42" penetration! The initial shot once inside the forward shoulder you could have stuck your fist in. The guide said in 85 grizz/ brownie kills he has been in on, that was most damage he ever saw a bullet do! The impact speed on the bullet should have been around 3113 fps. This load was accurate and flat out flying! The bear squared 9'8" with no tail, if he had a tail may have been a 9'10" bear or a hair more, 27 12/16 this skull with a beautiful hide.
Copper mono bullets at high velocity are amazingly deadly with great penetration along with high damage. Kinda best of both worlds

 

[Marky_mark]

Mark, i killed a brownie on Kodiak this spring at 178 yards with a 338 rum shooting 210hht @ 3462 fps, bear was quartering towards me bullet went in forward the left front shoulder through ribs, shredded the lungs and exited back right side rib cage 42" penetration. It rocked the bear back, he spun and ran left quartering away, second shot entered left side raking back ribs, breaking 4 going in through lungs out front rib cage, into neck, penetrated length of neck and ended up under the skin behind his right ear, effect was a cartwheel unto his back, dead, 41-42" penetration! The initial shot once inside the forward shoulder you could have stuck your fist in. The guide said in 85 grizz/ brownie kills he has been in on, that was most damage he ever saw a bullet do! The impact speed on the bullet should have been around 3113 fps. This load was accurate and flat out flying! The bear squared 9'8" with no tail, if he had a tail may have been a 9'10" bear or a hair more, 27 12/16 this skull with a beautiful hide.
Copper mono bullets at high velocity are amazingly deadly with great penetration along with high damage. Kinda best of both worlds

Awesome!!! Congrats!
I've been interested in those bullets as well as the cutting edge ones
It's great to hear actual first hand performance results!

 

[Noobie]

Well the OP was talking nosler partitions, heavy for caliber. I had a bad experience on an elk shot at close range with one, didn't hit any bones, but shed most of it's weight. Right through the chest cavity quartering towards me. Elk went quite a ways, luckily there was snow. I wouldn't even consider a 300 cal with NP's for brown bear, might as well go with a varmint bullet. Since then I have switched over to Swift A-Frames for dangerous game and Sciroccos for Elk. A-Frames retain 91% of weight whilst expanding siginificantly at very high velocities. They make a 200 grain in .308.

 

[Bux240]

More years ago than I want to count I took this 8 foot + mountain grizzly at 247 yards with my .338 win mag. Every previous post concerning bullet placement is spot on, but in order to assure proper bullet placement one has to become intimate with your rifle. I shot my religiously (10 shots minimum at each session) weekly from May through August before my September hunt. You MUST know you weapon intimately (even better than your wife, IMO) to assure proper bullet placement while under the excitement/stress of the situation. From personal experience, my bear dropped at the shot, but my guide & I put an additional 7 rounds into him (for insurance sake "bullets are cheap, compared to what you just spent on this bear hunt" said the guide). We waited 20 odd minutes for him to "stiffen up"; and low and behold he (the bear) swung a paw-probably his death throw-so the guide & I hit him again. Bears have a tendency to maintain an extreme hold onto life and you don't want to mess with a LIVE ****ED OFF bear. So, to summarize, IMO, 300 mag and up are fine but GET TO REALLY KNOW YOUR RIFLE and how and where it shoots

 

[skipglo]

One thing to remember those big boomers kick like crazy,if you develop a flinch your shot placement will suffer!!

Recoil....is all in the mind!

 

[skipglo]

More years ago than I want to count I took this 8 foot + mountain grizzly at 247 yards with my .338 win mag. Every previous post concerning bullet placement is spot on, but in order to assure proper bullet placement one has to become intimate with your rifle. I shot my religiously (10 shots minimum at each session) weekly from May through August before my September hunt. You MUST know you weapon intimately (even better than your wife, IMO) to assure proper bullet placement while under the excitement/stress of the situation. From personal experience, my bear dropped at the shot, but my guide & I put an additional 7 rounds into him (for insurance sake "bullets are cheap, compared to what you just spent on this bear hunt" said the guide). We waited 20 odd minutes for him to "stiffen up"; and low and behold he (the bear) swung a paw-probably his death throw-so the guide & I hit him again. Bears have a tendency to maintain an extreme hold onto life and you don't want to mess with a LIVE ****ED OFF bear. So, to summarize, IMO, 300 mag and up are fine but GET TO REALLY KNOW YOUR RIFLE and how and where it shoot

When you said shot placement...I thought you were talking about making a good shot....I didn't realize you meant put a bullet every 10" into a Bear!!!

 

[Marky_mark]

Recoil....is all in the mind!

Recoil gets in your mind
And when it does, it's a big problem
You really dont need anything bigger than a 30 or 338, with high quality bullets

Bullet placement and construction are the most important things you need to worry about

Bullet diameter and velocity are a distant #3 and #4

 

[skipglo]

Recoil gets in your mind
And when it does, it's a big problem
You really dont need anything bigger than a 30 or 338, with high quality bullets

Bullet placement and construction are the most important things you need to worry about

Bullet diameter and velocity are a distant #3 and #4

That's probably why recoil has never been a problem for me....NO SENSE...NO FEELING!

 

[akmtnhnt]

I've only ever hunted black bears with a 6.5cm. They die every time. The bullet and the placement is just so much more important than diameter. I've killed everything OTC in Alaska with that rifle except brown bear.

I'll be sitting bait later this year looking for browns. I'm generally solo. It wouldn't bother me to bring the AR in 223 wylde just because people think it's dumb, when it's perfectly capable. I've never shot a black bear that had any idea I was there. If they did I wouldn't have had the shot so I wouldn't have taken it. But that'd be with any rifle. There's no danger whatsoever. The bears aren't hunting you back and if they get the slightest smell of you they're gone so fast.

I think people that think you need a cannon for a bear a) haven't been around bears much b) don't know bear anatomy/haven't taken one apart.

Honestly the ideal bear rifle is a semi-auto that holds quite a few that has so little recoil that you can stay in the scope and on target after every shot. That's going to be something like 6.5 grendel and under. You shoot bears until they stop moving because you don't want them to run off.

Haha, less than 24 hours later someone up here posts on that thread with exactly what I suggested. Sure looks like it works just fine. Hunting solo and everything. Guess he had a death wish.

Can we link to other forums? https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...walrus-and-moose.130488/page-371#post-3656117