B.D.C. reticles and 1st and 2nd focal plane

[tribb]

In my experience, a sfp scope will have a white dot on a specific power that the manufacturer suggests is the closest in correlation. However, it is only a standard measurement that gets close unless it is for a specific caliber.

Yes I see that on my leupolds

 

[tribb]

I only use FFP scopes now and for the past maybe 20 years, your image as others have said change and along with the reticle, so needing a BDC is a waste of time, just shoot at your yardages and dial up or just use the hash marks, those will be your BDC, so easy, FFP scope with VHR Variable Hunter Reticle, This is the ones I use, check them out, their awesome and unreal how good the glass and they have all the goodies. One sale now around $400 large numbers on the turrets, I have never missed with these scopes, really, unless you wish to spend thousands for the same thing.

What brand is this scope thanks.

 

[SSG Graybush]

well, I am glad we got the scum sucking fish part straight... Now on a more serious note (which is really hard for me to be) it's not about knowing drop in linear increments it's about knowing the linear increments are going to be very close to the real trajectory. So if I run across an animal that is close to 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 of the way between know drops I can split differences and be very **** close even out between 700 and 800 yards and less than that I am even closer. With respect to wind, I find 2 MOA wind hashes work great for me.

But I am an old guy and can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning plus I could pass out between trigger break and impact on 1000 yard shot.

BTW, thank you for your service to this great nation. My nephew just made SSG in the Army.

Congrats to the new SSG. biggest pay jump in enlisted ranks is E5 to E6.

 

[tribb]

Only issue with a BDC reticle will be matching your rifle and ammo to what they are set at... so at any distance they aren't worth a darn. Better to dial, or train yourself to use a greatvreticle like Horus 59, Tremor 3 or 5, etc. I stopped using BDC's and trained myself to learn my DOPE. Then it doesn't matter what power my scope is, I just dial and blast away. Or you take the next step and you use a "Christmas Tree Reticle" which I prefer, and just use hold overs.

Doi have this correct? The lines on a Christmas tree reticle are equally spaced unlike bdc?

 

[tribb]

For me its the exact opposite, I don't have to put a 1.5 lb scope on my rifle to get a scope that has accurate clicks and I don't have to validate that the clicks are accurate all the way out 50 or 60 clicks. Consider if my clicks are 85% accurate at 45 clicks, I am 7 clicks off.

I have lots of BDCs reticles. I fire a few test rounds and true my BC. I always want my first hash to be true at 300 yards so I adjust my zero which normally turns out to a be a zero between 200 & 225 and I don't care about being at inch high at 200, I want that first hash zeroed at 300. I build a drop chart for my stock out to 600 and I am done. Never have to worry if my scope dial system got out of calibration, did I turn my dial back to zero when I thought I had a long shot but it didn't work out and up pops an animal at 100 and I have a narrow time opportunity.

I am probably not the norm but I tell lots of friends if you're never shooting past 750, consider a BDC style reticle with drop marks out to 20 MOA an windage to 10 MOA. Might be easier for you.

This is what I'm used to doing. My bdc scope center wire is zeroed at 170 first cross wire is dead on at 300 and so on down the line. This being all set at 18 power under 300 use the center hold onto a mite high or low depending on exact yardage. I use a good range finder!! Should have put that in original post .

 

[med358-boise]

Doi have this correct? The lines on a Christmas tree reticle are equally spaced unlike bdc?

Tribb,

I use the term BDC reticle generically to refer to any reticle with stadia marks, dots, circles etc whether evenly spaced or not. There are literally 100 pus versions including many with wind hashes. Some evenly spaced some not, some Christmas Tree some not. Most Christmas trees are evenly spaced but I suspect there is one out there somewhere that is not. There are also rectangular grids of dots as opposed to Christmas tree shaped. The Leupold website has a very good sample of what is out there. https://www.leupold.com/shop/reticles If you look at all the variations, I don't see a lot of value in saying that BDC means specifically this and Christmas Tree means specifically that other than very general concepts because otherwise where would you stop? BDC, Christmas Tree, House, Symmetrical Stadia, Symmetrical Dot, Full Cross Stadia, T Stadia etc.

To say that Christmas Tree means anything other than the general shape of the reticle "points" is just a label for convenience purposes, IMO.

To say that a BDC type reticle is fixed to exact yardages is also misleading. It is fixed to a set of MOA subtensions and you can set zero at any distance you want using any hash/dot/stadia mark you want. I can make one zero point work (usually it is not the main crosshair, usually it is the first "drop mark" and set at 300) for those subtensions for my rifle, cartridge combination for 95% of the scenarios I will face in my hunting lifetime with some for thought. For PRS or similar competitions its not the way to go. I really like a simple set of 2 MOA hashes out to 20 MOA or the Leupold B&C reticle or the Leupold LR Wind Plex was a great reticle but they discontinued it.

If a hunter has a self imposed limitation of say less than say 700-800 yards and the cartridge has the capability and the hunter has the "wind skills", many BDC like (including Christmas tree like) reticles are very workable. Some more than others. Feel free to PM if you want to chat. The shorter the limitation, the more BDC like reticles are workable. When I look at how little of an error in wind velocity and value estimation has an effect on wind drift, my shot limitations get shorter.

Here is a cow elk I took it 550 yards using the Leupold B&C reticle and using the to of the picket (which is 7.8 MOA) and 14 inches of holder over. Which for a cow elk is going to be making sure the top of the picket just breaches the top of back.

 

[sp6x6]

I had my set up like 358 boise, my son uses that same now.on a 340 wby and my ol 325wsm.Hes a killer and use to it, you verify your drops.He had one screw up one day on a 700+ bull by being on wrong delta when he shot, but made quick correction and nailed him, that where 1000's of rounds in the Marines probably helped him. Ive been shooting FF,for 14 years thats what I favor.Back when ,not many options I had the Leupold black ring tactical, still do,mildot Mao.I shot elk out to 800 on my 340wby with that set up, you just have to know your equipment, its not that big a deal.I don't care what scopes on rifle ,I just want the shoot opportunity

 

[SSG Graybush]

Tribb,

I use the term BDC reticle generically to refer to any reticle with stadia marks, dots, circles etc whether evenly spaced or not. There are literally 100 pus versions including many with wind hashes. Some evenly spaced some not, some Christmas Tree some not. Most Christmas trees are evenly spaced but I suspect there is one out there somewhere that is not. There are also rectangular grids of dots as opposed to Christmas tree shaped. The Leupold website has a very good sample of what is out there. https://www.leupold.com/shop/reticles If you look at all the variations, I don't see a lot of value in saying that BDC means specifically this and Christmas Tree means specifically that other than very general concepts because otherwise where would you stop? BDC, Christmas Tree, House, Symmetrical Stadia, Symmetrical Dot, Full Cross Stadia, T Stadia etc.

To say that Christmas Tree means anything other than the general shape of the reticle "points" is just a label for convenience purposes, IMO.

To say that a BDC type reticle is fixed to exact yardages is also misleading. It is fixed to a set of MOA subtensions and you can set zero at any distance you want using any hash/dot/stadia mark you want. I can make one zero point work (usually it is not the main crosshair, usually it is the first "drop mark" and set at 300) for those subtensions for my rifle, cartridge combination for 95% of the scenarios I will face in my hunting lifetime with some for thought. For PRS or similar competitions its not the way to go. I really like a simple set of 2 MOA hashes out to 20 MOA or the Leupold B&C reticle or the Leupold LR Wind Plex was a great reticle but they discontinued it.

If a hunter has a self imposed limitation of say less than say 700-800 yards and the cartridge has the capability and the hunter has the "wind skills", many BDC like (including Christmas tree like) reticles are very workable. Some more than others. Feel free to PM if you want to chat. The shorter the limitation, the more BDC like reticles are workable. When I look at how little of an error in wind velocity and value estimation has an effect on wind drift, my shot limitations get shorter.

Here is a cow elk I took it 550 yards using the Leupold B&C reticle and using the to of the picket (which is 7.8 MOA) and 14 inches of holder over. Which for a cow elk is going to be making sure the top of the picket just breaches the top of back.

I gave the windplex reticle idea to Leupold, 100% fact. I met a rep at an event at Valley Guns II in Martinsburg WV, where I bought one of the 1st Springfield TRP Operator 45 acp's. They did a poor job making it imo, the windplex. The cds had just came out, I said, "great, what about wind?" We talked about it, made a couple crude drawings, about a year later ta-da.
I also got Bergara to make the Mountain rifle, and OMR to do Bergara's and complete upgrade packages.
Got to give myself a pat on the back, none of them did.
Nice cow, good eaten there.
A mil/moa reticle, a good ballistic app(Applied Ballistics) and wind calling skills/Kestrel meter are a must for LRH.

 

[Ckleeves]

The issue I have with any sort of BDC type reticle is it's making things harder rather then easier. Why would you ever want to be dependent on using a specific scope power to have accurate holds at weird ranges? It works ok, (not well) but why handicap yourself like that? I have heard people say it's simpler, but what is simple about it vs a decent mil or moa based reticle in FFP and whatever solver you want to use to have accurate holds (if you want to shoot off the reticle) and windage at any distance and any power?

It's a minute of deer idea that requires more thinking then it needs to from 20 years ago.

 

[tribb]

Tribb,

I use the term BDC reticle generically to refer to any reticle with stadia marks, dots, circles etc whether evenly spaced or not. There are literally 100 pus versions including many with wind hashes. Some evenly spaced some not, some Christmas Tree some not. Most Christmas trees are evenly spaced but I suspect there is one out there somewhere that is not. There are also rectangular grids of dots as opposed to Christmas tree shaped. The Leupold website has a very good sample of what is out there. https://www.leupold.com/shop/reticles If you look at all the variations, I don't see a lot of value in saying that BDC means specifically this and Christmas Tree means specifically that other than very general concepts because otherwise where would you stop? BDC, Christmas Tree, House, Symmetrical Stadia, Symmetrical Dot, Full Cross Stadia, T Stadia etc.

To say that Christmas Tree means anything other than the general shape of the reticle "points" is just a label for convenience purposes, IMO.

To say that a BDC type reticle is fixed to exact yardages is also misleading. It is fixed to a set of MOA subtensions and you can set zero at any distance you want using any hash/dot/stadia mark you want. I can make one zero point work (usually it is not the main crosshair, usually it is the first "drop mark" and set at 300) for those subtensions for my rifle, cartridge combination for 95% of the scenarios I will face in my hunting lifetime with some for thought. For PRS or similar competitions its not the way to go. I really like a simple set of 2 MOA hashes out to 20 MOA or the Leupold B&C reticle or the Leupold LR Wind Plex was a great reticle but they discontinued it.

If a hunter has a self imposed limitation of say less than say 700-800 yards and the cartridge has the capability and the hunter has the "wind skills", many BDC like (including Christmas tree like) reticles are very workable. Some more than others. Feel free to PM if you want to chat. The shorter the limitation, the more BDC like reticles are workable. When I look at how little of an error in wind velocity and value estimation has an effect on wind drift, my shot limitations get shorter.

Here is a cow elk I took it 550 yards using the Leupold B&C reticle and using the to of the picket (which is 7.8 MOA) and 14 inches of holder over. Which for a cow elk is going to be making sure the top of the picket just breaches the top of back.

That's what I'm talking about good job sir

I had my set up like 358 boise, my son uses that same now.on a 340 wby and my ol 325wsm.Hes a killer and use to it, you verify your drops.He had one screw up one day on a 700+ bull by being on wrong delta when he shot, but made quick correction and nailed him, that where 1000's of rounds in the Marines probably helped him. Ive been shooting FF,for 14 years thats what I favor.Back when ,not many options I had the Leupold black ring tactical, still do,mildot Mao.I shot elk out to 800 on my 340wby with that set up, you just have to know your equipment, its not that big a deal.I don't care what scopes on rifle ,I just want the shoot opportunity

Shot opportunities are what counts for sure. Scope selection I reckon is like other things, do what you can !

 

[Mtn Dawg]

The issue I have with any sort of BDC type reticle is it's making things harder rather then easier. Why would you ever want to be dependent on using a specific scope power to have accurate holds at weird ranges? It works ok, (not well) but why handicap yourself like that? I have heard people say it's simpler, but what is simple about it vs a decent mil or moa based reticle in FFP and whatever solver you want to use to have accurate holds (if you want to shoot off the reticle) and windage at any distance and any power?

It's a minute of deer idea that requires more thinking then it needs to from 20 years ago.

I agree. I've tried a bunch of them over the years and have arrived where I don't like the lack of precision involved. I am seldom on max magnification. Too much thinking involved in the heat of the moment. Close enough just isn't good enough for me anymore , if it ever was.

 

[med358-boise]

Perhaps harder for some but not for others, let describe further.

I can quickly get my required hold on the the target with a BDC reticle inside of 600 yards. I simply create two dope columns. For example on a 4.5-14 I create a column for 14x and 10x and I include the drop in inches between the hashes out to 600 yards. Look at the data in Post 39, you will see drops are quite linear between 100 yard increments. If I am taking a shot at 300 plus yard, it's not as if I am going to be saying "Hmmm, I think I will use 8 power today nah let me use 11 power today." I am either using max power (14) or 10 power and have data for both and I don't field hinder at all.

As far as "holds at weird ranges", I find that not to be true. As I said look at the data in Post 39. Trajectories are quite linear between 100 yard increments. My dope card is in 25 yard increments out past 400 yards, it includes not only the Hash Mark Yardage, but the mid Point between the Hashes and the Drop in inches between the Hashes and two columns 14x setting and 10 power setting. I am always using 14 unless I make a conscious decision to drop to 10. Of the 8 hunting rifles I run, I set up the dope card the same way and 4 of them are dial capable scopes. I have yet needed to use the dial capability in the field in the last 7 years.

The process is this fast: Range 518 yards. Max Power. DOPE Chart 525 yards is the 500 mark plus 7, "use 2/3 call it 4 inches at 518". My calculation will be within ~1 inch of the correct hold. The whole process takes me less than 20 seconds in my head.

The above is not trying to convince the folks who "don't like BDC reticles", it's for the folks that do have BDC reticles and use them to show them there is more versatility than may be you realized.

For the folks who do use dial scopes and don't like the couple of inches of "close enough" with BDC reticles; How do you deal with wind estimation error; given that 2 mph of missed estimation of a full value wind induces 4.5 inches of error for say a 7 PRC at 800 yards. Do you have a predetermined set of "rules of engagement" and if so how do you draw your limits?