Arizona ban on trail cams

[JMW67]

all of this is what happens when the left coast starts moving east they screwed their state now they are doing it to others they will get them all if not stopped soon

 

[azsugarbear]

First of all, as an Arizonan, I have to chime in. I've read the entire thread. Lots of good points, with some people talking out of their.....well, let's just say they have no point of reference. Perhaps the current options being considered by the Commission are less than ideal. What you have to understand is that this issue is not really about the use of game cameras, but rather the misuse of game cameras by commercial hunters/guides. When there is a problem, you have to start somewhere to try and fix it - even if the proposals don't seem quite fair. You have to trust that they will eventually get it right.

In AZ, we have limited game, especially when you consider the lack of good habitat in our state. AZ is roughly the same size as CO, but CO's elk herd is estimated to be about 300,000. AZ's elk herd is about 30,000. Same ratio for mule deer, but slightly higher. Add to that mix a large population (Greater Phoenix are has nearly 5 million people) trying to get drawn every year and you begin to see a problem with precious few solutions. Demand is simply stripping out supply.

The misuse of cameras, while spreading, has largely been limited to trophy units for elk and deer. The famous AZ strip is where most the huge monster mule deer come from. If memory serves me correctly, there are 80 total firearms permits for units 13 A & B. The chance of getting drawn is less than 1% for nearly all hunters with less than max points. So if you are lucky enough to get drawn - it is essentially a once-in-a-life-time hunt. You wait years to get drawn. And then you find out that the playing field isn't even remotely level. You and a few buddies have to go up against seasoned guides who have been on the strip for the past 20 years. Your limited time and resources go up against someone/some group who has been camped out there a full 60 days prior to the opening. They have hundreds of trail cams in operation to locate and time/pattern the biggest bucks. Their camp usually includes over 10 seasoned hunter/guides to assist. They set up blinds on the good water holes and have somebody sit in them everyday - even though the hunter is not present. If you get too close to a buck they are hunting, they will send up several people to glass near you, parking trucks in the open, making noise, etc. I have even seen them block off roads with their camps. The closest thing I can think of to this situation is a small town football team showing up to play against a AAAA team. The average hunter simply cannot compete against big business. And make no mistake, that is exactly what this is - big money, careers, endorsements, etc.

How do you tackle such a problem? Limit the number of guys in camp? Set aside specific camping areas? Publish rules for good conduct? (good luck with that one). Or hitting them where it hurts most - their trail cams. There is a reason they have so many - because they are effective. Start knocking them back and then see if the situation improves. If still not enough, then try something more, or something a little different. What is clear, is that the situation has to change. The solutions will be tougher to come by.

 

[jls in az]

How about raise the cost of a guides license to 50k a year and require ANYONE associated with an outfitting operation to have a guide license?

 

[mulie]

Totally agree with azsugarbear big money is in the game. I have personally seen Elk being herded back on to private ground with atvs. Oh they tell us to take pic's or video's suurre. The problem in Colorado is not the CP&W it is that anyone can decide to place laws into the Colorado State Constitution with signatures by getting it on the ballot. This is a major problem. CP&W don't make sound scientific decisions based on data. They are dictated by the front range out voting the rest of the state. Even I thought about placing an issue on the ballot " Stating you cannot block public access to public lands and that access to the public lands must not exceed a topographical grade. IE.... there is public access practically straight up or also river access. Maybe this should be the next adventure. Oh yah trail cams. Now we have wolves to be reintroduced, again the decision was made at the ballot box. Not the people whom are scientifically trained to make these decisions.

 

[azsugarbear]

Raising the cost to guide services does/will not solve the problem. They just pass the cost on to their customers, who seem to have unlimited funds for the trophy they are seeking. The answer is to level the playing field. Limit the number of cameras. Limit the times/seasons they can be used. Start there and then see what results it brings. No, banning all trail cam use is not the answer. But it can be a place to start a conversation.

 

[7stwnut]

First of all, as an Arizonan, I have to chime in. I've read the entire thread. Lots of good points, with some people talking out of their.....well, let's just say they have no point of reference. Perhaps the current options being considered by the Commission are less than ideal. What you have to understand is that this issue is not really about the use of game cameras, but rather the misuse of game cameras by commercial hunters/guides. When there is a problem, you have to start somewhere to try and fix it - even if the proposals don't seem quite fair. You have to trust that they will eventually get it right.

In AZ, we have limited game, especially when you consider the lack of good habitat in our state. AZ is roughly the same size as CO, but CO's elk herd is estimated to be about 300,000. AZ's elk herd is about 30,000. Same ratio for mule deer, but slightly higher. Add to that mix a large population (Greater Phoenix are has nearly 5 million people) trying to get drawn every year and you begin to see a problem with precious few solutions. Demand is simply stripping out supply.

The misuse of cameras, while spreading, has largely been limited to trophy units for elk and deer. The famous AZ strip is where most the huge monster mule deer come from. If memory serves me correctly, there are 80 total firearms permits for units 13 A & B. The chance of getting drawn is less than 1% for nearly all hunters with less than max points. So if you are lucky enough to get drawn - it is essentially a once-in-a-life-time hunt. You wait years to get drawn. And then you find out that the playing field isn't even remotely level. You and a few buddies have to go up against seasoned guides who have been on the strip for the past 20 years. Your limited time and resources go up against someone/some group who has been camped out there a full 60 days prior to the opening. They have hundreds of trail cams in operation to locate and time/pattern the biggest bucks. Their camp usually includes over 10 seasoned hunter/guides to assist. They set up blinds on the good water holes and have somebody sit in them everyday - even though the hunter is not present. If you get too close to a buck they are hunting, they will send up several people to glass near you, parking trucks in the open, making noise, etc. I have even seen them block off roads with their camps. The closest thing I can think of to this situation is a small town football team showing up to play against a AAAA team. The average hunter simply cannot compete against big business. And make no mistake, that is exactly what this is - big money, careers, endorsements, etc.

How do you tackle such a problem? Limit the number of guys in camp? Set aside specific camping areas? Publish rules for good conduct? (good luck with that one). Or hitting them where it hurts most - their trail cams. There is a reason they have so many - because they are effective. Start knocking them back and then see if the situation improves. If still not enough, then try something more, or something a little different. What is clear, is that the situation has to change. The solutions will be toughe

Raising the cost to guide services does/will not solve the problem. They just pass the cost on to their customers, who seem to have unlimited funds for the trophy they are seeking. The answer is to level the playing field. Limit the number of cameras. Limit the times/seasons they can be used. Start there and then see what results it brings. No, banning all trail cam use is not the answer. But it can be a place to start a conversation.

Awesome Post!

 

[villagelightsmith]

With all the regs surrounding the hunting sports, about 10 years ago I simply quit game hunting. After 40 years of assault upon hunting, with diminishing Freedom, it just wasn't fun any more. The most precious hours of my life have been spent in the wild country, exploring wonders great and small among our mountains and streams, rivers, forests, deserts and wetlands. But with the ever-increasing "presence" of "control," with the ever diminishing reality of Freedom and Solitude, I'll just say goodbye to the young, sweet land I have known. Those children who need it often go out and get a brief Wilderness masturbation by getting degrees in wildlife, bureaucracy, writing, biology, resource management/manipulation/police statism. And People, it isn't even close to the real thing. They have no knowledge, no understanding, no comprehension they have gone the wrong way. They know nothing of what they have destroyed for all those who come after them. It's too late to argue these points; I'm outa here. But for the blinded aho's who come after, unwittingly destroying as they go, I have neither time nor sympathy. A bit of pity, perhaps, but not a scintilla of support or quarter from here.

Okay, so I'm a little over the top. The fact remains I'd rather find a large, naked human turd on every rock, than find even a sweet young uniformed human turd (or an old one) wearing a smokey-bear hat even once in a months outing.

 

[snowypeakoutdoors]

Limiting cameras on public land is one thing. Private is another. Put in a private land exclusion. The way it is written right now is BS. This will be abused. Someone define what a "game camera" is.....and think about the second order effects of this. This literally becomes a thought crime on private property. Think in terms of access to property, 4th Amendment etc. Every law seems to get pushed to it's maximum use when it comes to the government. Since game cameras are the subject, I will give an example. The Supreme Court has ruled that only the curtilage of a residence has an expectation of privacy. There are now lawsuits against departments because officers are walking around on private property and placing cameras without warrants and saying they can do that because it is not in the curtilage.

 

[mmacfive]

I just remember a podcast with an elk guide from there. He was running 90 something trail cams all over the units he hunts! Hard work and dedication in its own right ,.I get that for sure. He also had bear boxes and locks for all of them, huge investment.
But what got me was when he mentioned how to deal with waterholes and wallows that already had 10 or more cameras on them....I didn't even hear his method. Just the fact of that many others stacking cameras, taking pics of each other and recording every piece of wildlife around...I dunno...what's wrong with a little mystery?
I do enjoy game cams(don't have any currently) , and checking them is like Christmas morning or checking traps. So I guess I'm just rambling here. 90 plus game cams!....watch where you crap for sure!

You are misinformed about 90 cameras all over the units...I know some outfitters that have 200-400 in a single unit. AZ 13B mule deer for example.

 

[JAYgs8163]

You are misinformed about 90 cameras all over the units...I know some outfitters that have 200-400 in a single unit. AZ 13B mule deer for example.

Unit 9, 10 as well for elk and speed goats.

 

[Bob Wright]

Yep...the "what is happening" are our wonderful new fees and regulations. It is going to get much worse. Look at the people Polis has appointed.....https://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/CommissionMembers.aspx

Merging parks and wildlife in 2011 was a slick power grab.
4-5 of the commisioners would never be on AZGF board.
The two services merging have totally different missions. Bad for both agencies as well. I'll be watching for a department merger kind of bill here, if it ever comes up.

 

[MZmoose]

After reading all the posts, I will never hunt AZ. That's big business not hunting. I'll stick with not seeing monster wall hangers or hardly any people. I go outdoors and hunt to get away from people. Let alone have some ***hole crowd me or interfere with my hunt. Best of luck to you.

 

[Ranger Rick]

I know my take on this will be unpopular, but its funny reading that camera's are "unfair, unnecessary and to much technology" for hunting. But the same people use a rifle that can reach animals at over 500 yards, a laser range finder to pin down the distance and even scopes that will calculate bullet drop.

And a compound bow that has 85% let off, and limiting trail cams is a start. ID FnG, are you listening?

 

[Jakemaupin]

Jake,
I was told this by a Idaho FnG officer a couple years ago the day before opening day. So I took his word for it as no one wants to get a Misdemeanor citation ( more FnG violations are misdemeanors then are infractions under the Idaho Code). I couldn't find a trail cam restriction in the current Regs. Thanks for the correction. I did however find this FnG publication:
https://idfg.idaho.gov/about/rules/...visual-and-communication-methods-aids-hunting. Cellular trail cams may revive a restrictions discussion. Thanks again

Hey Rick thanks for the info, the article you sent over didn't pass so we are still good to go on all trail cams in Idaho during hunting season for now! Good luck hunting and have a good day.