You don't think numbers on a data sheet should be accurate?
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An Apology to Berger Customers
- Thread starter Eric Stecker
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
You don't think numbers on a data sheet should be accurate?
You don't have to hide your comments made to me.
gohring3006
Well-Known Member
Wow.... here we go again. This thread should be closed
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I sometimes wonder what marketing in the automotive industry would be like if a manufacture could slap on any MPG sticker to their product. A 40 MPG claim attached to my Dodge truck technically wouldn't be a lie. I reset my fuel consumption gauge one day while on the top of a mountain pass. When I finally reached the bottom of the mountain after several miles and minutes of driving my full sized truck was averaging just over 40 MPG. While a claim of 40 MPG would not be a lie, I would consider it rather useless and unproductive long term. A more realistic usable MPG rating, as commonly used today, is more useful to the consumer.
What I find attractive in a company is one that tailors to the customer, one that is willing to adjust their initial computer MPG economy estimates when more field driving experience and results come in, and one that is willing to listen to the consumer. Testing and confirming MPG estimates, then making public notice of the change, is the right thing to do whether coming from a flat or slick bottomed car.
When I look at my reloading shelf I see bullets packaged in black, tan, red, blue, orange, green, white, and yellow boxes. I shoot them all otherwise they wouldn't be on the shelf. The vast majority of the bunch combined come in a yellow or orange box.
What I find attractive in a company is one that tailors to the customer, one that is willing to adjust their initial computer MPG economy estimates when more field driving experience and results come in, and one that is willing to listen to the consumer. Testing and confirming MPG estimates, then making public notice of the change, is the right thing to do whether coming from a flat or slick bottomed car.
When I look at my reloading shelf I see bullets packaged in black, tan, red, blue, orange, green, white, and yellow boxes. I shoot them all otherwise they wouldn't be on the shelf. The vast majority of the bunch combined come in a yellow or orange box.
Mikecr
Well-Known Member
But why fixate on one attribute(gas mileage only)? Surely there are other things considered in a purchase.
Do you buy Bergers purely for accuracy of BC on the box? Or even for BC that's a smidge higher than another brand?
That's just one attribute of their bullets.
When I load develop I'll try different brands and whichever worked best in a barrel is supported for the life of that barrel. By that point BC would not sway decision.
Sure BC is important, like good glass in a scope, but then it would be a mistake to buy scopes purely on good glass. That's not what we should be doing.
Berger has developed a lot of great bullets, and this inspires other bullet makers to follow suit. Nothing but good in this for us. Berger opened our eyes w/resp to seating testing. This is great for us.
Berger does a lot of other things they don't need to 'publish' about as achievement. Then so does Sierra & Lapua.
WE'RE VERY LUCKY FOR BERGER
Do you buy Bergers purely for accuracy of BC on the box? Or even for BC that's a smidge higher than another brand?
That's just one attribute of their bullets.
When I load develop I'll try different brands and whichever worked best in a barrel is supported for the life of that barrel. By that point BC would not sway decision.
Sure BC is important, like good glass in a scope, but then it would be a mistake to buy scopes purely on good glass. That's not what we should be doing.
Berger has developed a lot of great bullets, and this inspires other bullet makers to follow suit. Nothing but good in this for us. Berger opened our eyes w/resp to seating testing. This is great for us.
Berger does a lot of other things they don't need to 'publish' about as achievement. Then so does Sierra & Lapua.
WE'RE VERY LUCKY FOR BERGER
benchracer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,659
It's one thing to be wrong about something or to have overlooked something. It is entirely another matter to be dishonest about something. The mere presence of error is not a justification to call someone's integrity into question. To hurl such an accusation without cause is itself a dishonest act.
Berger Bullets doesn't just produce and market a product. They are one of the few companies I have seen, in any industry, that make a concerted effort to educate and inform their customers. I have personally benefitted from the efforts of individuals like Eric Stecker and Bryan Litz, both of whom regularly go above and beyond the call, on behalf of fellow shooters and customers alike. They don't need slick or deceptive marketing to sell anything. The product speaks for itself.
I have favorite bullets from other makers, but I haven't seen anyone from their companies make themselves available to the shooting public (and expose themselves to slings and arrows in the process) the way Eric Stecker and Bryan Litz do.
It is one thing to question someone's data. Quite another to question a person's integrity. If you do the latter, you had better be 100% justified about their character, not just be correct about the data. I don't believe there is a credible reason to question the integrity of anyone at Berger and I don't believe Eric Stecker needs to apologize to anyone. On the contrary, there are some folks who owe him a public apology. We have already seen Mr. Stecker take the high road here. Now let's see what his detractors are made of.
"The dogs may bark, but the wagon rolls on." -- VC Bird
Berger Bullets doesn't just produce and market a product. They are one of the few companies I have seen, in any industry, that make a concerted effort to educate and inform their customers. I have personally benefitted from the efforts of individuals like Eric Stecker and Bryan Litz, both of whom regularly go above and beyond the call, on behalf of fellow shooters and customers alike. They don't need slick or deceptive marketing to sell anything. The product speaks for itself.
I have favorite bullets from other makers, but I haven't seen anyone from their companies make themselves available to the shooting public (and expose themselves to slings and arrows in the process) the way Eric Stecker and Bryan Litz do.
It is one thing to question someone's data. Quite another to question a person's integrity. If you do the latter, you had better be 100% justified about their character, not just be correct about the data. I don't believe there is a credible reason to question the integrity of anyone at Berger and I don't believe Eric Stecker needs to apologize to anyone. On the contrary, there are some folks who owe him a public apology. We have already seen Mr. Stecker take the high road here. Now let's see what his detractors are made of.
"The dogs may bark, but the wagon rolls on." -- VC Bird
Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)
Well-Known Member
Eric... You folks at Bergers produce excellent products and continue to bring new innovative products to market that benefit shooters (like the new hybrids). Honestly, all men know this in their hearts, but sometimes you need to take the tactful route, and at other times, you need to stomp the pesky bugger into the dirt. You're not going to ruffle my feathers if you have a little punk juice to wipe off your boots. Just makes you human. we have all seen over the years that you are an outstanding individual dedicated to helping those that use or have questions about your products.
Quality of the ride usually trumps all! Efficiency is secondary if you can't keep it between the lines. Some manufacturers have a reputation to make great efforts for both. There will always be the diehard Ford fan vs. the Chevy fan, understandable but a quality product will speak volumes by itself.
Now that that is all said and done.....get to making those 6.5mm 130 gr Hunting VLDs! 
benchracer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2009
- Messages
- 1,659
Now that that is all said and done.....get to making those 6.5mm 130 gr Hunting VLDs!
+1 Here's hoping we can dispense with the drama and concentrate on bullets. I am selfishly hoping the backlog will clear so there will be room for new product introductions.
Berger and Eric are A++
I know 2 things about life
1) everyone make mistakes .
2) you will never please everyone !
Most people in would never admit their wrong in a situation , so A + for admitting your part .
Berger will always be the bullets I use due to the integrity of the people that run the company .( and Walt Berger is such a cool guy )
And they build one of the best products in the market .
Also they listen to their customers
I never see on any other forums , the manufactures coming on the forums asking for feedback from their custome like Berger does .
Just my .02
Now make some 6.5 130 gr hunting bullets
I know 2 things about life
1) everyone make mistakes .
2) you will never please everyone !
Most people in would never admit their wrong in a situation , so A + for admitting your part .
Berger will always be the bullets I use due to the integrity of the people that run the company .( and Walt Berger is such a cool guy )
And they build one of the best products in the market .
Also they listen to their customers
I never see on any other forums , the manufactures coming on the forums asking for feedback from their custome like Berger does .
Just my .02
Now make some 6.5 130 gr hunting bullets
Thanks for the explanation Eric.......Just me, but the interchange seemed like a hurricane in a tea cup. I personally don"t think you have to worry too much about the loyalty and admiration of your core customers. When I think about Berger i think about the game I have shot with your bullets between 700-1100 yards. Without the contributions of yourself and the rest of the team at Berger it's very possible that 500 yards would still considered extended long range hunting!!!
Lefty7mmstw
Well-Known Member
It is nice to see accurate bc's- as accurate as they can be. Many use flat base bullets only at the 100 or 200 yard line on paper but some do shoot longer ranges on varmints or small/ medium game with them.
I have taken flat base bullets to 600-700 yards for kills on deer a couple of times. This was with a 7rum that didn't really like a lot of loads, but the sierra 140 would put three in a cloverleaf at 3450 fps.
I have taken flat base bullets to 600-700 yards for kills on deer a couple of times. This was with a 7rum that didn't really like a lot of loads, but the sierra 140 would put three in a cloverleaf at 3450 fps.
Eric, we are good on the statement. All people are guilty o being a-holes from time to time. Me especially.
Now, I am a competent machinist with 2 weeks vacation left. I am volunteering to come in and make a big run of 7mm 168 and 180 VLD's.
Pay me in bullets and powder
Now, I am a competent machinist with 2 weeks vacation left. I am volunteering to come in and make a big run of 7mm 168 and 180 VLD's.
Pay me in bullets and powder
