Barnes Response to Berger
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zuba
Well-Known Member
Berger hasn't released a 338 bullet yet...
I've never shot an animal with either, I'm trying them out though...Long Time Long Ranger
Well-Known Member
To both Berger people who posted here. I disagree with both of you and your hype. The Barnes article is well written and for the most part accurate. I do not feel your articles or responses are either. I do not believe either of you have nearly the experience in the hunting game as needed. Barnes makes a hunting bullet and as good a one as there is. Berger makes target bullets. That is the difference. Hunters need to hunt with Barnes bullets and shoot targets with Bergers. The Berger philosophy of trying to market there bullets as hunting bullets is tremendously flawed. Berger is trying to tap into a hunting market their bullets do not belong in until they began producing quality hunting bullets.
I am in a big rush right now but will be back to identify some of your wrong assumptions.
I am in a big rush right now but will be back to identify some of your wrong assumptions.
Not convincing.
Like I said, shoot some 200 lb sandbags and tell me how acrobatic the bag is in response to your 25-06 bullet impacts. Better yet, take one of your dead deer after rigor mortis sets in - stand it on its feet and blast away. The results will be truly boring. If you don't want to sacrifice a deer for the cause of science, send a PM to 'royinidaho' and ask him how far his dead pig jumped into the air from bullet impacts from his 270 Allen Magnum, which generates a lot more energy than your 25-06.
Hear are Roy's threads covering the bullet tests he performed on a culled porker:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/bullet-performance-test-chapter-3-winner-32566/
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/bullet-terminal-performance-test-want-31872/
You could take some video, but it wouldn't be any more impressive than still photos. Take the nerves/muscles away and so go the acrobatics.
idig4au,
I think your question can be answered by how the products are represented compared to how they are actually found to perform.
This is a public discussion board where people can share their real world experiences about product performance.
If a company claims some specific performance, and the product does not achieve that level of performance, this is the place where uncensored customer feedback is shared.
The reason why some products get 'crucified' here is probably because they don't live up to their billing. If they were represented fairly, there wouldn't be any problem. It's only when something is sold as one thing, and falls short that people get angry. When one product is sold as the absolute best, all around performing 'thing' ever, at any price, to be found anywhere, never to be matched or exceeded.... It's likely to fall short, and people will hoist the BS flag. Not because of how the 'thing' actually performed, but because it was inaccurately represented.
You said:
And that's fine. We're not engaged in this discussion to talk people out of shooting Barnes bullets. We're engaged in this discussion because those at Barnes were not happy with "Enough Said". They had to make up more stuff (misleading and unsupportable stuff) about how their bullets are better than all others. The reaction that they were 'crucified' here is simply the customer feedback mechanism which works the same way every time a product falls short of it's representation.
Long Time Long Ranger,
When you get the time, please identify any specific statements made by myself or Eric in this thread that you don't agree with. If you don't agree with us because you believe we've made false or unsupportable/unverifiable statements, please identify them specifically. If you're just mad for some other, less constructive reason, don't expect a reply.
Thank you,
-Bryan
Last edited:
jmden
Well-Known Member
idig,
I don't think anyone is being crucified, at least not that I've seen. Use what works for you. The reason the components you mention are talked about quite a bit on this board is because they tend to work pretty well for long range hunting for quite a few folks on this site. And there are some very good reasons to use those scopes, bullets and the chambering (among others) that you mention. That's all.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Hmmm... I dont think you've read these threads very well?
No one is being crucified for not using any particular bullet. I've already said that I'm a fan of controlled expansion bullets and no one is crucifying me.
What IS happening is that the authors of these Barnes articles are be called on the carpet for basically false information. Do you get it???? Has nothing to do with bullet preference. My bullet preferences are the Nosler E-Tips and ABs. If you like Barnes bullets, that's great! If IMO, Barnes made a good a bullet as the E-Tips and AB's, I would use them as well no matter what who wrote what article.
Dont get defensive because your're a Barnes fan... it's not at all about that.
-MR
trebark
Well-Known Member
Hey...you forgot Chapter 2 with the overall results and the video....
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/bullet-performance-text-video-chapter-2-a-32565/
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/bullet-performance-text-video-chapter-2-a-32565/
Thanks .280fan! My bad... gun)
I'm not getting defensive at all. Just making a generalized comment from reading various posts over the years on here, that is all. I'm speaking from a generalized standpoint. There are some rather opinionated people that certain products are all that should be used and if somebody offers a different opinion, then here comes the other comments on how they are wrong. It all comes down to that a certain product might work great for their applications, but not for somebody elses.
Just look at all these threads about Barnes vs Bergers and its a good example of the wolf pack mentality around here. The Berger fans seem to be foaming at the mouth. It's all about who's right and who's wrong.
What it all comes down to it is shoot and use what is best for your application and be happy about it.
I need to update my comment. Barnes shoot well, Noslers shoot well, Swifts shoot well and I'm sure Berger's shoot well too. I'm sure there are some other bullets out there that shoot well too. Now I'm politically correct. Jeez. Enough said.
jmden
Well-Known Member
idig,
This site is far from a 'Berger Fan' site.
The folks that shoot the 338 EDGE that you mentioned earlier, for instance, mostly shoot the 300g Sierra MatchKing. Quite a few folks shoot all different kinds of bullet that frequent this site that work for them in their situation.
Bergers have their application as well and as the highest BC bullets as a group (one of those nagging deterministic factors), they may tend to perform better, at least in terms of external ballistics, at extended ranges (this is lrh.com, afterall) than some other manufactures bullets.
Like you say--pick what works for you in your situation and espcially if you are shooting long range, one manufacturer you should certainly consider is Berger. That's all.
Even the Berger employees in this thread are saying that and I don't recall seeing anyone badmouthing other brands. What I do see is folks trying to get at the FACTS, not badmouthing brands. There's a difference.
This site is far from a 'Berger Fan' site.
The folks that shoot the 338 EDGE that you mentioned earlier, for instance, mostly shoot the 300g Sierra MatchKing. Quite a few folks shoot all different kinds of bullet that frequent this site that work for them in their situation.
Bergers have their application as well and as the highest BC bullets as a group (one of those nagging deterministic factors), they may tend to perform better, at least in terms of external ballistics, at extended ranges (this is lrh.com, afterall) than some other manufactures bullets.
Like you say--pick what works for you in your situation and espcially if you are shooting long range, one manufacturer you should certainly consider is Berger. That's all.
Even the Berger employees in this thread are saying that and I don't recall seeing anyone badmouthing other brands. What I do see is folks trying to get at the FACTS, not badmouthing brands. There's a difference.
I think this is a classic debate about hard bullets verses softer, fast expansion bullets in small calibres rifles.
There can be no winner in this debate because at the end of the day, if a bullet causes enough damage to kill an animal quickly then it has done its job no matter what its construction. You need to get out there and kill some animals and see what works for you.
Long Range Hunters should be first looking at the calibre of rifle that they are using and the maximum distance they intend to shoot. I am a fan of using big calibres and soft bullets with good B,C's. If you use this combination then you will put a big hole in any animal. The bigger the bullet, the bigger the hole, the quicker the kill.
Get the biggest calibre rifle that you can handle then get out in the field and practice something more important like precision bullet placement.
There can be no winner in this debate because at the end of the day, if a bullet causes enough damage to kill an animal quickly then it has done its job no matter what its construction. You need to get out there and kill some animals and see what works for you.
Long Range Hunters should be first looking at the calibre of rifle that they are using and the maximum distance they intend to shoot. I am a fan of using big calibres and soft bullets with good B,C's. If you use this combination then you will put a big hole in any animal. The bigger the bullet, the bigger the hole, the quicker the kill.
Get the biggest calibre rifle that you can handle then get out in the field and practice something more important like precision bullet placement.
Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
Idig,
I am responding to your post not because I wish to rebut you but rather because there are ideas related to your post that need to be communicated to others who read these forums but do not post.
These forums serve as the fire by which all (product) metal is tested. Manufacturers throughout the entire firearms industry are primarily concerned about one thing - keeping their business alive. Each manufacturer produces a product that IS good, mediocre or bad. Unfortunately, their promotional materials will ALWAYS paint them as being good regardless of their true quality (or lack of).
The problem with this is, just like every other product the actual results produced by the product is fixed regardless of the way a particular manufacturer promotes the product. These forums serve as a Consumer Reports of sorts by allowing everyone and anyone the ability to share their experiences with firearms industry products.
If you find that on a particular forum certain products are acclaimed or ridiculed you should consider why. No one should make a judgment from any one posting but rather take into account all that is posted about a given product. Each of us who read these posts are capable of sorting out for ourselves what is important to us and what is not.
I mention all of this because I believe there is a greater issue with which we as shooting sports supporters should be concerned. The firearms industry and shooting sports is among a list of a few groups which is under attack by those who wish to see the whole of the shooting sports go away forever.
The reason why I am so intensely frustrated by misinformation spread by those within the industry is because I strongly believe that those who do such things are focused on their own self interests and not those of the shooting sports as a whole. This behavior hurts the shooting sports by producing bad experiences.
What I mean is no marketing hype or product positioning will overcome what will actually happen when you use a particular product. If you are lead to believe that a particular product will perform in a certain way and it doesn't, you will have a bad experience. Rack up enough of these bad experiences and you are less likely to continue to be active in the shooting sports.
The weakening of the shooting sports by misinformation which produces bad experiences is something that I will oppose at every opportunity.
Some of you might be scratching your head and saying "what the heck is Eric talking about?" Let me give you an example. Berger makes many bullets used for shooting varmints. When I am asked "how explosive are they on varmints?" my response every time is "not as explosive as Nosler ballistic tips."
This is the truth. I could easily say "they are very explosive" which neither tells the shooter anything specific nor helps them improve their shooting experience. The fact is those who use Bergers on varmint do so because they are very precise and capable of excellent accuracy. The amount of "explosiveness" is good (and capable of killing any varmint you hit) but it is not as explosive as Nosler's ballistic tips or frankly any tipped bullets.
When those who ask me "how explosive are they on varmints?" are given this truthful answer they are then empowered to decide whether they are more interested in explosive expansion or enhanced accuracy. I have been telling varmint hunters this truth for years and we sell a large amount of varmint bullets to those who are very happy to shoot them.
If I were Barnes, I would handle this situation very differently. What I would do is say that we (in this paragraph I am pretending to be Barnes) produce a bullet that will penetrate deeply and retain a majority of its weight. Our bullets are more successful at achieving this result than any others on the market (which is true). The accuracy level of our bullets is capable of meeting the needs of any game hunter up to and including shots at medium range. Also, the deep penetrating and high weight retaining characteristics of our bullets makes them ideal for hunting the world's largest and most dangerous game.
The fact is there are hunters who are very satisfied with this level of performance. By taking this position publicly Barnes is speaking truthfully and is still satisfying the needs of those who loyally use their product. When the bullets perform as they are accurately described you get a hunter who has a good experience because he got results he expected. If anyone thinks that communicating this position publicly will hurt Barnes position in their portion of the market then they have not been reading the posts of those such as Long Time Long Ranger who have no intension of shooting a different bullet.
If we go back to the original article that prompted my response article which lead to this latest rebuttal article by Thad we will see that Barnes was trying to position themselves as something that they are not. I believe strongly that they will be far more successful if they stick to what they do best and let those who want this type of performance continue to buy their product. I am confident that they will not run out of customers.
Should Barnes genuine position result in a reduction in their sales then they need to consider evolving to keep up with the desires of the market just like any other business. Staying the same (general bullet construction) and saying they are different is precisely what started this mess in the first place. Misleading shooters is something I will not tolerate especially when Berger is the subject of this misinformation.
Regards,
Eric
I am responding to your post not because I wish to rebut you but rather because there are ideas related to your post that need to be communicated to others who read these forums but do not post.
These forums serve as the fire by which all (product) metal is tested. Manufacturers throughout the entire firearms industry are primarily concerned about one thing - keeping their business alive. Each manufacturer produces a product that IS good, mediocre or bad. Unfortunately, their promotional materials will ALWAYS paint them as being good regardless of their true quality (or lack of).
The problem with this is, just like every other product the actual results produced by the product is fixed regardless of the way a particular manufacturer promotes the product. These forums serve as a Consumer Reports of sorts by allowing everyone and anyone the ability to share their experiences with firearms industry products.
If you find that on a particular forum certain products are acclaimed or ridiculed you should consider why. No one should make a judgment from any one posting but rather take into account all that is posted about a given product. Each of us who read these posts are capable of sorting out for ourselves what is important to us and what is not.
I mention all of this because I believe there is a greater issue with which we as shooting sports supporters should be concerned. The firearms industry and shooting sports is among a list of a few groups which is under attack by those who wish to see the whole of the shooting sports go away forever.
The reason why I am so intensely frustrated by misinformation spread by those within the industry is because I strongly believe that those who do such things are focused on their own self interests and not those of the shooting sports as a whole. This behavior hurts the shooting sports by producing bad experiences.
What I mean is no marketing hype or product positioning will overcome what will actually happen when you use a particular product. If you are lead to believe that a particular product will perform in a certain way and it doesn't, you will have a bad experience. Rack up enough of these bad experiences and you are less likely to continue to be active in the shooting sports.
The weakening of the shooting sports by misinformation which produces bad experiences is something that I will oppose at every opportunity.
Some of you might be scratching your head and saying "what the heck is Eric talking about?" Let me give you an example. Berger makes many bullets used for shooting varmints. When I am asked "how explosive are they on varmints?" my response every time is "not as explosive as Nosler ballistic tips."
This is the truth. I could easily say "they are very explosive" which neither tells the shooter anything specific nor helps them improve their shooting experience. The fact is those who use Bergers on varmint do so because they are very precise and capable of excellent accuracy. The amount of "explosiveness" is good (and capable of killing any varmint you hit) but it is not as explosive as Nosler's ballistic tips or frankly any tipped bullets.
When those who ask me "how explosive are they on varmints?" are given this truthful answer they are then empowered to decide whether they are more interested in explosive expansion or enhanced accuracy. I have been telling varmint hunters this truth for years and we sell a large amount of varmint bullets to those who are very happy to shoot them.
If I were Barnes, I would handle this situation very differently. What I would do is say that we (in this paragraph I am pretending to be Barnes) produce a bullet that will penetrate deeply and retain a majority of its weight. Our bullets are more successful at achieving this result than any others on the market (which is true). The accuracy level of our bullets is capable of meeting the needs of any game hunter up to and including shots at medium range. Also, the deep penetrating and high weight retaining characteristics of our bullets makes them ideal for hunting the world's largest and most dangerous game.
The fact is there are hunters who are very satisfied with this level of performance. By taking this position publicly Barnes is speaking truthfully and is still satisfying the needs of those who loyally use their product. When the bullets perform as they are accurately described you get a hunter who has a good experience because he got results he expected. If anyone thinks that communicating this position publicly will hurt Barnes position in their portion of the market then they have not been reading the posts of those such as Long Time Long Ranger who have no intension of shooting a different bullet.
If we go back to the original article that prompted my response article which lead to this latest rebuttal article by Thad we will see that Barnes was trying to position themselves as something that they are not. I believe strongly that they will be far more successful if they stick to what they do best and let those who want this type of performance continue to buy their product. I am confident that they will not run out of customers.
Should Barnes genuine position result in a reduction in their sales then they need to consider evolving to keep up with the desires of the market just like any other business. Staying the same (general bullet construction) and saying they are different is precisely what started this mess in the first place. Misleading shooters is something I will not tolerate especially when Berger is the subject of this misinformation.
Regards,
Eric
