• If you are being asked to change your password, and unsure how to do it, follow these instructions. Click here

A response I didn't expect

There was a lot to his email that made me miffed. I will not post the name of the smith as it is his right to turn down work. I told him I was gathering parts, gave him the list, and asked his turnaround time. His response was.... parts gatherers are the most difficult and troublesome of all customers. Their lack of real world knowledge, hands on experience and preconceived ideas simply complicate an already difficult task.... .

Remember my email to him was about turnaround around time and that I was gathering parts and I wanted him for the build.

I am over this now as I have settled on a smith, but it was weird to me and quite frankly ****ed me off.


OK that warrants instant search and find NEW 'smith - and nuts to that e-mailer. Clearly this one is new to the business world - regardless of his/her talent with a CNC machine. I'd avoid them and wouldn't hesitate to steer my friends/collegues away.

Glad you've found a professional to do the build for you.
 
The response from the gunsmith didn't seem that strange to me. I have found over the years that some smiths that have built a very strong reputation, and following for their product tend to have more work than they can handle, with very long delivery times. Many have a build formula that they have perfected and believe that it is that formula that is responsible for their reputation. Their philosophy is why take on a job that doesn't fit their model when there will always be a customer that wants their formula. My buddy just ran into this same situation a couple of months ago.
 
Greyfox is right.
There are 'gunsmiths' who put together the collected customer parts into whatever the customer thinks they want. There could be no guarantees with this approach.
IMO, gunsmiths should stick to gun repair.

There are 'gunbuilders', who actually design, manage parts orders/finishing & assemble guns, with specific goals(purpose built). They can make performance guarantees.

There are 'machinists' & 'stockmakers' & 'actionmakers' & 'barrelmakers', etc, who can finish your collected parts and then you can put them together. I've gone this route a couple times(working on a third), it's a nightmare. One of the two guns shot to my expectations. The other ended up a learning experience..

The hassle in each route is that every one of these service providers are liars. And you'll even lie to yourself!
So if you try to be your own gunbuilder, plan on 3+yrs to eek through every line and blown deadlines.
If you can find a gunbuilder who has already rung out a design that would work well for you, pay that guy whatever he wants(in CONUS)(don't pay anyone in Canada for anything).
 
The response from the gunsmith didn't seem that strange to me. I have found over the years that some smiths that have built a very strong reputation, and following for their product tend to have more work than they can handle, with very long delivery times. Many have a build formula that they have perfected and believe that it is that formula that is responsible for their reputation. Their philosophy is why take on a job that doesn't fit their model when there will always be a customer that wants their formula. My buddy just ran into this same situation a couple of months ago.

Greyfox is right.
There are 'gunsmiths' who put together the collected customer parts into whatever the customer thinks they want. There could be no guarantees with this approach.
IMO, gunsmiths should stick to gun repair.

There are 'gunbuilders', who actually design, manage parts orders/finishing & assemble guns, with specific goals(purpose built). They can make performance guarantees.

There are 'machinists' & 'stockmakers' & 'actionmakers' & 'barrelmakers', etc, who can finish your collected parts and then you can put them together. I've gone this route a couple times(working on a third), it's a nightmare. One of the two guns shot to my expectations. The other ended up a learning experience..

The hassle in each route is that every one of these service providers are liars. And you'll even lie to yourself!
So if you try to be your own gunbuilder, plan on 3+yrs to eek through every line and blown deadlines.
If you can find a gunbuilder who has already rung out a design that would work well for you, pay that guy whatever he wants(in CONUS)(don't pay anyone in Canada for anything).

I appreciate what you guys are saying and agree - to a point.

To make the discussion easier, lets agree that in this we're not talking about the guy on the corner who bore-sight, does some trigger adjustment, some bedding, scope mounting and some limited accuracy improvements.

I believe we're talking about the super high-end accuracy assembly package Makers. Folks like many of our Long Range Hunting site Supporters - guys like Kirby Allen, Shawn Carlock, Jim See, Mountour County (can't remember his name sorry), Nathan Dagley (Straight Shot Gunsmithing - don't think he Supports here anymore though) and some others that i apologize for overlooking - i don't mean to offend anyone.

These guys are among the best of the best *anywhere* and specifically for our interests. Since these guys make their living - AKA buy their clothes, groceries, their kids clothes and everything else - from making the most accurate smoke-poles available they less inclined to be as "open and honest" as is prudent in good business development. However, i'd bet everyone one of 'em - to the last on the list, could take the same group of materials HoytFlinger was going to supply and make a tack-driver out of it.

They are Masters at what they do - their reputations precede them and they have the professionalism to back-up what they say and do. If there was a material item on the list that wasn't up to snuff, i'd bet they would discuss it professionally. If that item was a "material" compromise to the build i believe they would either refuse the build, in a professional manner, and stating their reason *or* would qualify the build to function, but with less-than-normal performance assurances.

What i'm trying to say is that a Professional can work under a wider variety of circumstances/materials and *still* achieve excellence. In Home Construction the equivalent saying would be, "The hammer doesn't make the house"; In photography we say, "The camera doesn't take pictures".

This was a gun builder not a general smith. I sought them out as my action and parts fits their model.

Too bad for them and GREAT for you - sounds like you've found a Professional to do the build for you - Yahoo!!! Kudos to the Pro's and hard-knock class for the non-professional.
 
Greyfox is right.
There are 'gunsmiths' who put together the collected customer parts into whatever the customer thinks they want. There could be no guarantees with this approach.
IMO, gunsmiths should stick to gun repair.

There are 'gunbuilders', who actually design, manage parts orders/finishing & assemble guns, with specific goals(purpose built). They can make performance guarantees.

If all a gunsmith did was gun repair, they'd be an armorer, not a gunsmith. By definition a gunsmith makes guns.
 
I've worked in the service business for a long time. It's not that complicated.

Custom Rifle Wanter I have these parts for a custom rifle. I want you to build it like this. How quick can you have it finished?

Custom Rifle Builder Building a rifle for guys like you is usually more trouble than it's worth. I'm not interested.
 
I've worked in the service business for a long time. It's not that complicated.

Custom Rifle Wanter I have these parts for a custom rifle. I want you to build it like this. How quick can you have it finished?

Custom Rifle Builder Building a rifle for guys like you is usually more trouble than it's worth. I'm not interested.

I didn't tell him how to build it. I only told him I wanted it bedded with Devcon. He could've said no Devcon and offered the compound of his choice, but he didn't. This was basically here are my parts will you build it. Take his side I really don't care anymore as I have someone now with much greater credentials to build it for me.
 
I'm not choosing sides, I don't care who builds or who doesn't build your rifle. I'm simply telling you why your Smith of choice isn't building your rifle.
 
fmajor, you're livin a rosey world man. And good for you.
But let me tell how it is in my world:
Until a gun & load & scope proves to be an accurate combo -it isn't.

Best builder in the world is still rolling the dice on barrels. He don't know at all that 'we' can reload or load develop to his build's potential. Until HE verifies it, he don't know that your scope holds zero or tracks at what value. He don't know that your firing pin strike is right, regardless of the trigger chosen, until he's measured it with overall action timing.
He don't know how you'll shoot the gun.
He don't know what lot your barrel is coming from.

These are things a gunbuilder, like anyone else, has to work out.
Many have & they'll sell you their best.
Many have not & they'll sell you their best/worst at the same rate, as they are built exactly the same from their perspective & efforts.

Be careful to weed through even the big name gunbuilders for someone who will prove YOUR build shoots, and exactly how well(with all qualifiers detailed), -before mailing it out.
I was fortunate to get a Tubb2000 within 1.5yrs of ordering. By the time I NF scoped it & invested in reloading components/tools for it, I had a good chunk of change in it.
The gun grouped well under 1/2moa, but despite my efforts ended up the least 'accurate' of my guns(which made it useless for LR hunting).
So I recently sold it to a competitor at ~$2K loss.
And I won't be rolling the dice like that anymore...
 
I'm not choosing sides, I don't care who builds or who doesn't build your rifle. I'm simply telling you why your Smith of choice isn't building your rifle.

It's funny though when you look at their builds you see rifles made on almost exactly the same parts I was going to give them and the only thing I wanted was Devcon and my reamer to be used. So their mentality of parts gatherers are troublesome makes no sense to me. They make their living with the parts I was providing.
 
I'm closing this now as I've said and seen all I care to about it. I'm actually quite glad they turned it down as I feel I have a much more pedigreed builder for it.

Well I thought I could close it.... Guess not.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 13 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top