? about bad barrel blank

[Gcan]

Here is my outboard spider. I was holding the barrel with both the inboard and outboard spiders. I used a range rod in the bore and indicated it as close to zero as possible by using both spiders and moving the indicator close to the barrel and further away. I really don't recall how close to 0 runout I got it, but this is a hunting rifle and I really wasn't looking for every last 10th. In your opinion (taking my setup out of the equation for a second) if my chamber to bore runout was .0012", shouldn't that have shot good enough for a hunting rifle? Here is my target a 25 yards

Then I moved out to 100 yards

When I see that kind of group at 25 yards I'm looking at a lot of things before I think bad Barrel. Loose scope mounts/screws. Bad bedding/loose screws. Stock hitting barrel. Broken/cracked stock. Bad shooting setup or foundation. Dirty firing pin causing varying ignition time. Bounce on a bipod. Damaged crown.
I took in a 22-250 Rem 700 varminter a while back. The gun shot 1" groups but threw the odd keyhole. When I checked the throat it was completely burned out for almost 1". It was eroded to the point I could push 90 grain bullets completely out of the comparator case and down the bore 1" plus before hitting lands. I discovered it had 2000 rounds thru it and had probably been cleaned twice. And it still shot 50 grain HPs @ 1" -ish. It shot a lot better than yours seems to at 25 yards.
On the other hand, I have a Jim Ruiz Predator AR10 that shoots Fed 168 Match @ 1/8" at 100 meters like its free. One day I put a new scope, a one piece Larue QD mount and a Gold Trigger on it all at the same time. The gun began shooting 1-1/2" groups. I thought the trigger was too light. Changed it. Still shot 1-1/2". Thought the scope was bad. Changed it. No help. Eventually I took a good look at the Larue mount and discovered I had installed it incorrectly. The mount wasnt actually one piece. The base and ring halves were separate and sandwhiched a square rail on the base. So when I torqued the top screws the bottom couldn't clamp the base tightly before hitting the torque limit. It felt firm and secure but wasn't.
So the scope was rocking in the mount about .001".
re set the rings and gun was fine.

 

[70oldsracer]

I'm using a picatinny rail with a set of weaver scope rings. The scope I had on the rifle originally was a Konuspro-M30. I'm not really a fan of the rail on a hunting rifle, but it allowed me to mount the scope exactly where I needed it. When the rifle started giving me problems, I automatically thought I screwed up chambering it and kinda chaulked it up to that. I did put a Vortex scope on it, but like I said, I never shot it again. Living in NYC kinda makes it difficult to sight in rifles, because there isn't any rifle ranges close by. The nearest range is about an hour from me. I always loctite and torque my bases to the receiver and torque my rings to the manufacturers specs. Although, I made the mistake once of using Warne rings on a Vortex scope. Warne recommends 25 inch pounds and Vortex wants between 15 and 18" lbs. Needless to say I crushed the tube and Vortex sent me a new scope. No where in the instructions from Vortex did it say 15-18" lbs. I'm pretty sure the mount and rings are not the problem, but I really appreciate the reply.

 

[MNbogboy]

Have you tried the Shaw barrel in the original set-up or even with the new scope?
Reason I ask is there is always a possibility of another mechanical problem other than scope.
A puzzling problem I had once with the front action screw length. You couldn't feel it hitting the bolt head but would "tilt" the cartridge enough to cause flyers. A Sharpie mark revealed it and is now always part of my routine when installing a different stock.
Could the trigger or sear be rubbing on the stock?
Also did you say you bedded the recoil lug? Or the whole action?
My guess is it is not the barrel. If I had 7mm-08 dies I would offer to try it out for you on any of my numerous Savages.
Someone on here should surely be able to examine it and try it out on a different action to rule out barrel or not barrel.

 

[70oldsracer]

Have you tried the Shaw barrel in the original set-up or even with the new scope?
Reason I ask is there is always a possibility of another mechanical problem other than scope.
A puzzling problem I had once with the front action screw length. You couldn't feel it hitting the bolt head but would "tilt" the cartridge enough to cause flyers. A Sharpie mark revealed it and is now always part of my routine when installing a different stock.
Could the trigger or sear be rubbing on the stock?
Also did you say you bedded the recoil lug? Or the whole action?
My guess is it is not the barrel. If I had 7mm-08 dies I would offer to try it out for you on any of my numerous Savages.
Someone on here should surely be able to examine it and try it out on a different action to rule out barrel or not barrel.

I haven't received the Shaw barrel yet, but as soon as I get it and put it together, I'll see how it shoots. I didn't do any bedding on this because the stock has the full aluminum bedding block. Everything is still at my friends shop, so I'll take a look at the things you mentioned once I get it back, thanks. I wish I could find someone else willing to take a look at the barrel to see if it's the barrel or something else.

 

[70oldsracer]

Well, I received an email from Wilson barrels and they will allow me to ship it to them and they will inspect it 100%. Once I get the barrel back from my friend it will go right out to Wilson and I will update this thread with their findings. Thanks again for all your replies.

Frank

 

[Gater]

Well, I received an email from Wilson barrels and they will allow me to ship it to them and they will inspect it 100%. Once I get the barrel back from my friend it will go right out to Wilson and I will update this thread with their findings. Thanks again for all your replies.

Frank

Good luck

 

[Philip J Theodhor]

Such a major project undertaking for such a tiny lathe of a questionable integrity.
I however applaud you for your work whatever your final out come may be.
Everything in life is truly a learning experience and you have gained an awful lot of insight by working on this project. May your next endeavor allow you to reap the rewards of lessons learned here.
This is by no means a slam at you as I have had over forty years of experience as a Tool & Die maker and have also experienced the same learning curves and mistakes as yourself, so please don't beat yourself up over this.
To quote:"If one can not learn from mistakes one is doomed to continued failures"
Truer words have never been spoken !

 

[bigngreen]

I haven't received the Shaw barrel yet, but as soon as I get it and put it together, I'll see how it shoots. I didn't do any bedding on this because the stock has the full aluminum bedding block. Everything is still at my friends shop, so I'll take a look at the things you mentioned once I get it back, thanks. I wish I could find someone else willing to take a look at the barrel to see if it's the barrel or something else.

Did you check to make sure the tang was free floating in all areas, I've seen more than one Savage go of the rails because of tang pressure!!
Also looks like your using range rods, they simple won't repeat under .0015, to get dialed you really need to finalize your dial in by direct read. Also sounded like your dialing both ends and not just the chamber, this will of course work BUT it requires a much better blank than dialing in the chamber which is pretty much standard now since that reamer is going to try to go to the center line of the lathe.
I've seen barrels that the chamber was so crooked the throat didn't even cut out on one side shoot 1/2 moa, I've seen barely detectable out of line in another blow out groups and a redial and set back bring it to life, some barrels just have more temperamental steel too.

 

[70oldsracer]

While I'm waiting to get my barrel back from my friend so I can send it out to Wilson so they can check it, I think I figured out a way to post that article by Les Brooks about chambering a barrel on a 7x12 lathe. Hope it works.

 

[shortgrass]

Les Brooks has about 60 years experience, you don't! When it comes to machining, any machining, experience counts no matter how many UTube videos have been watched. When it comes to stockmaking, bedding, trigger install & adjustments, any welding , or about any other gunsmithing task,,,,,,, experience counts.

 

[70oldsracer]

Les Brooks has about 60 years experience, you don't! When it comes to machining, any machining, experience counts no matter how many UTube videos have been watched. When it comes to stockmaking, bedding, trigger install & adjustments, any welding , or about any other gunsmithing task,,,,,,, experience counts.

Although I appreciate reply, You originally said:

You haven't enough lathe for what you are trying to do

So I guess it's not that I don't have enough lathe, your answer now is that I don't have enough experience?

 

[shortgrass]

You don't have enough experience to be using a mini lathe to chamber with. You're trying to use a miniature sized machine for medium sized work. Hence, "not enough machine". With enough experience, problems such as this can be "worked around". I think you'd be surprised how much easier it would be with a machine the size of a SB Heavy 10. The Heavy 10 only has a 10" swing, but it is an industrial quality machine, where as the mini lathes don't really have an "industrial" use or are of industrial quality. BIG difference! But, with enough machining experience, a guy might make the mini work. It'd darned sure be the hard way to "learn how", though.

 

[70oldsracer]

My lathe doesn't exactly fall under the "mini lathes" category. My lathe is a 9x20, most lathes that qualify as minis are the 7x12's. In the big scheme of things though, my lathe is a mini in comparison to most of the lathes out there being used for gunsmithing. I lack the large spindle bore, swing, distance between centers and most of all, the rigidity. Having the lathe for over 15 years, I have made a lot of updates as well as made it more rigid, especially in the tool post and I have learned to work around it's shortcomings. I have to thread by keeping the half nut engaged, turning the lathe on, let it cut threads until it gets into the relief cut back out the cross slide and reversing the lathe and staring over. I changed the spindle bearings from Chinese to American made ones. I do agree with you that it would be a lot easier if I had a bigger lathe, but unfortunately I don't. This is my first barrel blank that I have threaded and chambered, so let's see what Wilson has to say. Maybe my friend is wrong and the barrel is actually fine, but my machining is bad.

 

[Mram10us]

My lathe doesn't exactly fall under the "mini lathes" category. My lathe is a 9x20, most lathes that qualify as minis are the 7x12's. In the big scheme of things though, my lathe is a mini in comparison to most of the lathes out there being used for gunsmithing. I lack the large spindle bore, swing, distance between centers and most of all, the rigidity. Having the lathe for over 15 years, I have made a lot of updates as well as made it more rigid, especially in the tool post and I have learned to work around it's shortcomings. I have to thread by keeping the half nut engaged, turning the lathe on, let it cut threads until it gets into the relief cut back out the cross slide and reversing the lathe and staring over. I changed the spindle bearings from Chinese to American made ones. I do agree with you that it would be a lot easier if I had a bigger lathe, but unfortunately I don't. This is my first barrel blank that I have threaded and chambered, so let's see what Wilson has to say. Maybe my friend is wrong and the barrel is actually fine, but my machining is bad.

Imo, if you have had the lathe that long and know it, I don't see any issue with it. I'm not there so I won't argue the point.

I'm guessing Shortgrass works on every make and model which would require decades of experience, but learning to thread and chamber a barrel should take a guy with a double digit IQ about 3 months of practice. With forums and YouTube, the information is instantaneous and easy to understand. It's like having an instructor anytime you want one.