7mm STW Brotherhood - For those who shoot the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner

[Dano1]

7stw,

It's too bad that you've had blowups with the 7mm 168g VLDs, I can totally understand the .300 Ultras, but the 7mm shouldn't have. I've shot a few cow elk and a couple of Muley bucks with 168g .30 cal VLDs, (I know you guys wanted to hear about the 7mm VLDs) and I had no blow ups. 2 of the cows required second shots to make sure they were down, but were dead on their feet. One was at 320yds and the other at 525yds.

The buck in my signature photo was taken with a 168g Berger VLD at 330yds.

I'm interested to know specifically about the 180g 7mm VLDs as I'm loading them for Muleys out to 800 yds. The accuracy is there, I'm going for center mass, double lung shots.

Dan

 

[Riverman]

7STW, Thanks for your honesty. You confirmed what Berger is really telling you if you read the product information. So I'll jump out there and take the heat. The Berger VLD's are target bullets not elk bullets. 2-3" of penetration and then the bullet detonates, that is cutting it too thin for me. A wounded bull elk can travel miles before it stops.

The best elk bullet that I've ever used is the Swift A-Frame which has the B.C. of a pointed rock but a point of the shoulder shot puts a big bull on the ground and you might recover the bullet in the opposite side ham looking like an add for Mushrooms Are Us, still wieghing 98% of it's original wieght.

I shot a bull elk in Idaho last year at a lasered 412 yds. with the Barnes 180 gr.TTSX, a standing quartering away shot and the bullet was a pass through. I have yet to recover a Barnes bullet from a game animal. I also put a .338, 225gr. TTSX completely through a very large Alaskan bull moose last year.

Is anyone out there experimenting with Barnes 7mm 168gr. LRX in the 7mm STW ?

 

[WapitiBob]

Aren't most of the guys on here that use the VLD's using "heavy for caliber" weights? 200+ for Elk and the 168/180 for Deer?

that LRX looks tempting....

 

[Dano1]

Wapatibob,

You're right, they are also shooting cartridges with large case capacitys like .300 Ultra, .300 Win Mag, etc... My animals were all taken using a .30-06 AI and I was pushing the 168g VLDs at 3125 FPS.

I am switching to a 190g VLD and I've already worked up that load. They are moving at 2800 FPS.

This is the a good speed for these bullets. Berger has also recomended to keep them under 3200fps. (At least that's what they told me a few years back.)

Dan

 

[Big Jake Duke]

This is the a good speed for these bullets. Berger has also recomended to keep them under 3200fps. (At least that's what they told me a few years back.)

Dan[/QUOTE]

Didnthisnhave to do with nose slump and accuracy or impact detonation foot pounds?

 

[7stw]

7stw,

It's too bad that you've had blowups with the 7mm 168g VLDs, I can totally understand the .300 Ultras, but the 7mm shouldn't have. I've shot a few cow elk and a couple of Muley bucks with 168g .30 cal VLDs, (I know you guys wanted to hear about the 7mm VLDs) and I had no blow ups. 2 of the cows required second shots to make sure they were down, but were dead on their feet. One was at 320yds and the other at 525yds.

The buck in my signature photo was taken with a 168g Berger VLD at 330yds.

I'm interested to know specifically about the 180g 7mm VLDs as I'm loading them for Muleys out to 800 yds. The accuracy is there, I'm going for center mass, double lung shots.

Dan

Dano1, how are ya? I have thought long and hard on it, and believe me when I tell you, that the VLD's do shoot well. I am considering any way to give the 168 another shot, and may even try the 180's in my new one. Maybe I just had a " bad " batch. Now as far s the 300, I think that was from toooooo much horsepower driving it. Velocity was near 3400. They say they become volatile over 3200. SO, the jury is still out as to if I go that road, but I may. I did go back to the Fail Safes on my 300 RUM, and am shooting tsx' sin my 300 win, and 7 mag, 700 LSS. Hornady 162 a max in Sako stw. I have tome to think about it, and I may opt for the 180's in the new build. Man will those things be flat or what? You've got me thinking now. Will keep you posted.
On another note, I have been doing some practicing with my 308 at the bench, for a bench rest shoot at a local club near me, that is coming up soon. I have been getting CONSISTENT 1/4 minute, and sub 1/4 minute groups with my 308. This thing is " sick " accurate" and almost tooo predictable. I can shoot her 35 times before cleaning becomes necessary, or that it becomes a accuracy issue. This thing loves 168 smk's , 42.2- 8208 @ 2.825-200 CCI. Don't want to bore anyone with " little gun" stuff, but it is trigger time that keeps us sharp! Take care to all. gun)

 

[Dano1]

no,

It had to do with the jackets being too thin and coming apart when fired from fast twist barrels and velocity being over 3200 FPS. There are some guys shooting them at 3400 fps with the ocassional failure or rather blowing up the bullet.

I started using the Berger when I was sent a box to test for them before they relased them as a hunting bullet. I was worried about using a target bullet for hunting and left a message with Berger. Eric Stecker called me back and answered many of my questions about how they were supposed to work. I then told him I would give them a try. Needless to say they work just like they say they will.

I do think them to be marginal for elk, and I've only used them on cows which are much smaller than the big bulls, so far I've not had any problems, however a heavier for caliber bullet for a bull should work fine. This is why I'm also loading the 190s for my .30-06 AI. I'll still use the 168g bullets for Muleys and cow elk. they (the 168s) are the most accurate bullet I've ever shot out of this rifle, 5 shot groups being the size of a nickel on a regular basis and ocassionally the size of a dime. The 190s are also very accurate, but not quite to the degree of the 168s. They extend the range of this rifle 200 more yards.

The 180g 7mm vlds look to be very promising and I wouldn't hesitate to take the "long shot" if the buck of a life time were to present the perfect shot..... been dreaming of the opportunity.....had chances before I learned to shoot the long distances and really messed them up.... we live and learn and then make it count when the chance comes again.... right???

Dan

 

[Dano1]

7stw,

I don't think it was a bad batch, just like you said.... too much horse power.

On a side note, my friend hunts with a .300 RUM and we get great accuracy with the 180g Barnes TTSX at 3400fps (99g retumbo), however I'm not too impressed with them... he has taken 2 bulls and 1, 4x4 muley buck with them and the Muley required 2 shots and I recovered both bullets distance was 350 yds. One of the bullt took 3 shots and the other 2 all were well placed kill zone shots.

My friend invested in 180g Scriccos, but we can't get them to group, I 've convinced him to try a heavier bullet, so we'll have to see which bullet he decides on and see the results.

Cool to hear about the .308.... repeatable accuracy may be boring to some, but being able to hit what you aim at is awesome! I've loaded new fireform loads for my .30-06 AI. They are 180g Hornady hollow poin match bullets loaded to 2800 fps. They are super accurate for fireform loads and I can hit baseball sized swingers with them at 300yds. lots of fun!!!

All of my rifles, except for the 7 STW aren't magnums, so I shoot Hornady SSTs and Sierra Gamekings out of them, they work great for deer and elk...

Later,
Dan

 

[7stw]

Dano1, when I said " bad batch" I was referring to the 7 mm, 168 VLD"s, that blew up at velocities that I would have thought were way safe. That was only 2977 fps. I may try the 180's. That bullet does certainly intrigue me. Will keep you posted, and glad that all is well . Take care.

 

[etisll40]

Good reading tonight.

Dano, have you taken any game (what kind) with the gamekings? They shoot great out of my 7STW.

Len on here used 177 grain Cauterucio's for quite some time, you might email him on his Elk experience. He's Len Backus the owner of this fine site.

I have never hunted Elk as a NYer it's whitetail here mostly. But I do want to Elk hunt, it's in the mix over the next year or so. Along with Mulie's.

Here's something I read from an outfitter on Elk bullets, he recommends;

Winchester XP3
Barnes MRX
Barnes Tipped-TSX
Trophy Bonded Tipped Bear Claw
Hornady GMX
Swift A-Frame

-at least 160 grains.

I'm going to try these and pick the best shooting for Elk hunting.

 

[Dano1]

Ed,

I've taken quite a few Muledeer with the Gamekings, I've taken 2 bucks with a 100g Sierra GK out of my .243 AI, 2 using a 150g GK out of a 7mm Rem Mag Sendero (I don't have this rifle any more) Several Bucks using 165g GK out of my .30-06 before and after I built it into a .30-06 AI. and 1 Cow Elk with a 165g GK also out of the Standard .30-06 Springfield.

My father also likes Gamekings out of his 7mm Rem Mag and .30-06 Springfield both Ruger no.1s. Both 150grns as well.

We have never lost an animal to a Gameking, They are very accurate, almost as accurate as Match Kings and held to very tight tolerances. They are a cup and core bullet, but they have all done quite well.

It seems that for the .30-06 a 165g GameKing loaded to 2700-2800 FPS is a match made in heaven. Many deer have been taken with this combo.

Right now I have a load for my 7 STW using a 160g Sierra Gameking Hollow point over 77g of IMR7828 (seated to fit the magazine) that shoots at about an inch out of my rifle. It was a generic load that I put together to get the rifle on paper this last fall. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a Big muley buck or even a huge bull elk with this load. It would drop them like a ton of bricks.

My problem is that I keep chasing the most accurate load for both targets and hunting. Some of my best groups have been with Sierras, I've been able to get Bergers to shoot tighter groups. Both are well under an inch, but the Bergers out shoot the Gamekings. I don't dare hunt with Matchkings, as I've heard about penciling and other bad things happening with them.

So as far as accuracy is concerned, Berger wins in my .30-06 AI. Hornady won in my 6.5-06 AI (which my Father now owns), Sierra wins in the .243 AI and my Father's .30-06 Springfield and 7mm Rem Mag . Sierra also wins in my .243 Win Varmit rifle, it shoots 75g Hollow Points.

Sierras are great bullets. They perform quite well on Big Game and are easy to get to shoot. bergers perform quite diffrently, but Dead is Dead and if you can drop them in their tracks it's an awesome feeling. But both will get the job done. If you have reservations about these two bullets go to a 160g Nosler Accubond.

The bullets that the outfitter recommended are all good elk bullets, but the question is, can you get them to shoot with the level of accuracy that you desire?? I agree with the bullet weight thing as it gives something of a fudge factor for erronious shooting, but they may not shoot well in a standard 7 mag, they may do well in your 7 stw. Most outfitters are dealing with clients who don't shoot very often or have problems with buck/ bull fever. I've had friends I've taken who have the same issues. It definately makes things interesting and usually I'm having to work harder for something that wouldn't hve been that bad had they made a better shot. Guys like us who do lots of shooting can place shots with precision. Those 160g Sierras will do very well if you put'em in the lungs or heart, a liver shot will kill'em very quickly as well.

Sorry for rambling on....

Dan

 

[Riverman]

Dan,

I like your rambling, I'm learning a lot about Berger bullets without burning my barrel out. I also contacted Berger for some reloading data on the 168 & 180 VLD bullets. The strange thing that I noticed is that maximum listed velocity with both bullets was right at 2900 - 3050 fps. Unfortunately Walt Berger did give an explanation. Now I understand don't push these bullets faster. You have me back on my original track and that is to stay with the 160gr. Nosler Accubond or 168 gr.Barnes LRX.

 

[etisll40]

What's interesting to me, is that almost all 1000 yard bench shooters it seems, no matter what the caliber, shoot at between 2950 and 3050! There must be something about match bullets that is consistent as in possibly the aerodynamics of the flight as it slows.

Hunting is an accuracy game but additional velocity kills quicker. At least that's what I am thinking.

Finding the right bullet and the right speed for it to be accurate and harvest animals is critical.

 

[Dano1]

Ed,

You've hit it right on the head, in so much as a lighter bullet pushed faster will kill quicker and impart more energy ( at normal or midrange distances)

I would also add if I may, that heavier for calibers retain their energy at a much longer distance than the lighter faster bullets and have the ability to be more accurate at the longer distances due to higher BCs if the rifle can stabilize them. This is why the large caliber longrange shooters are screaming at Berger to make the Bigger VLDs and Hybrid Bullets. What they have been able to do with the big bullets is amazing to say the least.

Barnes for the most part goes with he lighter bullet being pushed faster concept. The fact that they are a homogenous solid bullet the metal being copper. All other "lead free" bullets on the market are some form of gilding metal same as a regular bullet jacket. These bullets will hold together at extreme velocities and do work with impressive results.

I'm the type of guy that wishes that there was the best of both worlds, but we all know that there is no such thing as the best bullet out there.

I'm leaning toward (as far as my 7STW is concerned) I'm trying to shoot the biggest bullet I can at the highest velocity, Im working with the 180g Berger VLDs. My rifle has a 1-9 twist so it has been able to stabilize them quite well.

With my .30-06 AI I'm right on the threshold with velocity at 3125fps with the 168g VLDs, the 190s will do better and hit harder at longer distances but the rifle can only push the to 2850 FPS or so. Fortunately I can sight in my rifle for both bullets to have the same 200yd zero after that they need diffrent drop calculations.

Riverman,

I'd hate to have anybody not choose Bergers because of me, but if your intention is to push them faster than 3200fps, you'd be correct in choosing a tougher bullet.

It all boils down to:

What distances will you be hunting at? 0-500yds? Barnes, Swift Scriccos & A-Frames, Hornady Interbonds and Nosler Accubonds are the way to go. Further a Berger will drop'em with out blowing up on impact and should be able to take them waaaaayyyy out there. Hopefully I'll be able to prove this theory this fall.

dang,

I'm Rambling again.......

later,

Dan