7mm Sherman Short Mag vs 300 Win mag

[elkaholic]

Good stats Jeff! If you run those numbers on out to 1300 yards, the 7 beats the 30 by 41'/sec., has .5 moa less wind drift, and only 52 ft/lbs. less energy. The 7 can be built on a short action, has less recoil, better barrel life (I'm talking the SS), plus the fun factor. The SS has 15 grains less capacity than the 7WM and it will rum the 195's at 2950 with my 26" barrel. I am not saying that a 7 is better than a 30 anymore than a 6.5 is better than a 7, but that there are good reasons to build either........Rich

 

[elkaholic]

Superb post.

I guess I didn't really mean that the 7 SS was better, but simply that it is very comparable with much less powder and it's usuable in a short action. How often can you compare the energy and ballistics of something like a full length 300 win mag to a short action magnum?

300WM does have an edge because you have the capacity to do so. I just found a load that seemed common, but not necessarily the best.

I just read your post after I posted. Guess we are in tune

 

[TheDerkster]

I just read your post after I posted. Guess we are in tune

Everybody can agree on facts!

 

[Broz]

Superb post.

I guess I didn't really mean that the 7 SS was better, but simply that it is very comparable with much less powder and it's usuable in a short action. How often can you compare the energy and ballistics of something like a full length 300 win mag to a short action magnum?

300WM does have an edge because you have the capacity to do so. I just found a load that seemed common, but not necessarily the best.

Thank you and Yes Sir, Like I said Rich has an awesome well though out line up, very efficent. Please know my post was not aimed at you are anyone alone. I just happen to have spent what I feel is a lot of time and money trying to get the 7's to out preform the 30's. I was all set to rebarrel by 300 win to 7-300 for the 195's. After the due process of real research I decided the 300 is a much better option for my needs.

In these type discussions, particularly the 7's and the 30's, it is often taken over by emotions and pride of ownership. Or just "what I like" kicks in. Then we get jaded posts with undocumented results and snide comments. I felt I had something to offer to this thread with the research I have done and wanted to share it.

There are many options out there as far as chamberings, action lengths, efficiency, case capacity and so on for each. What I hoped to convey was an equal comparison for the 7 and the 30. What ever you do to one to make it more efficient, you can also do to the other. But it does take dedication and money. Again I commend Rich for his work and design. I would hope he would agree with my posts.

Respectfully,
Jeff

 

[elkaholic]

Thank you and Yes Sir, Like I said Rich has an awesome well though out line up, very efficent. Please know my post was not aimed at you are anyone alone. I just happen to have spent what I feel is a lot of time and money trying to get the 7's to out preform the 30's. I was all set to rebarrel by 300 win to 7-300 for the 195's. After the due process of real research I decided the 300 is a much better option for my needs.

In these type discussions, particularly the 7's and the 30's, it is often taken over by emotions and pride of ownership. Or just what I like kicks in. Then we get jaded posts with undocumented results and snide comments. I felt I had something to offer to this thread with the research I have done and wanted to share it.

There are many options out there as far as chamberings, action lengths, efficiency, case capacity and son on for each. What I hoped to convey was an equal comparison for the 7 and the 30. What ever you do to one to make it more efficient, you can also do to the other. But it does take dedication and money. Again I commend Rich for his work and design. I would hope he would agree with my posts.

Respectfully,
Jeff

Well put Jeff!

 

[Broz]

Good stats Jeff! If you run those numbers on out to 1300 yards, the 7 beats the 30 by 41'/sec., has .5 moa less wind drift, and only 52 ft/lbs. less energy. The 7 can be built on a short action, has less recoil, better barrel life (I'm talking the SS), plus the fun factor. The SS has 15 grains less capacity than the 7WM and it will rum the 195's at 2950 with my 26" barrel. I am not saying that a 7 is better than a 30 anymore than a 6.5 is better than a 7, but that there are good reasons to build either........Rich

Yes Rich, I understand completely. But would you shoot an elk at 1300 yards with it? I personally would not. I would even have to do a deep soul search before I took a 1300 yard elk shot with my 300 win and a 215. Smaller game ok. I have taken antelope with my 300 at 1300 yards. So I was trying to offer inside where most of us would use these calibers, and on the game I have most of the most data.

And again I agree with the efficiency of your chamberings. Very efficient and impressive for sure.

There is no way we can over come the value of BC when we go to the point where the velocities cross. BC will always prevail. But inside usable hunting distances we can make good comparisons to see what works best for each of us.

We are so lucky today to have the high BC options we do. I hear there is a 245 gr 30 cal on the horizon. Put that in an efficient chambering and a proposed BC over .8 and it looks impressive for sure. But until we take them to the field it is all just blue sky.

I also want to offer that readers take my terminal performance results and give them a hard look. I was very disappointed in the dispatch qualities of the 7 on elk. I have seen this over and over in my life, first with 168's, then 180's now 195's. I really had high hopes for the 7mm 195 in my program. Think about it. Would I ignore a documented advantage in ballistics? I want all I can get to improve my percentage of quick kills. From external ballistics to terminal performance. But in the end I want them dead as quickly as possible and that trumped my decision to use what kills best.

Jeff

 

[7mmShooter]

Always love seeing your posts Jeff, guys like you, Rich, and others share hard data to back up what you say. Just looking at the bullets and ballistics side of things, you would think the 7 would have a nice edge, but when it truly comes down to it bigger really is better as evidenced.

Excellent work guys, have a great day!

 

[FEENIX]

I think it's awesome that we have plenty of choices to choose from. Rich did an awesome job creating his wildcat lines and no doubt it will perform and in due time hands on real world experience like what Jeff has will slowly compile.

Having said that, Jeff's hands on real world experience is though to beat.

I just ran the numbers on the 245 at 2800 FPS MV ... WWZER! Looking forward to it, meantime, I have settle for the 215/230s. gun)

Kudos to both.

Cheers!

Ed

 

[Pdvdh]

...The 215 Hybrid will out kill the 195 in a way so obvious after about a 15 or 20 elk taken with the 7 I put it away. The 300 with a 215 , not once needed a second shot to dispatch the elk...

...But if elk are ever going to be in your freezer, under equal conditions, the 30 cal will out kill the 7 all day long...

Hope this info might help someone.

Jeff

Reassuring information Jeff, based on my current caliber and bullet choices. Thanks for sharing. It's rare that anyone is in the position to collect this sort of comparative information - since few participate in elk cull hunts and observe so many kills. Knowing what a stickler you are for details, and how matter of fact you present your findings, I don't need further convincing - and won't be persuaded otherwise.

I've hunted Alaska game with .338s, .308s, and 7mms over the past 40 years. Predominantly the .338s and .308s because of the every present bears. The .338s are pretty potent stoppers on moose and brown bear. All in all, obviously more so than the 7mms.

Today I use .308s for backpack hunting when hunting sheep, goat, caribou or black bear, due to the extra stopping power should I have to kill a grizzly in self defense. When I hunt brown bear, it's a .338 - whether I'm backpack hunting or not. I want them down so they can't take me down, which has become a fairly common annual occurrence for both hunters and non-hunters alike up here. Sows protective of their cubs most of the time, but sometimes old dominant boars.

I transferred over to the 215gr Hybrid largely based on your experiences and feedback. That and Rich also found them to perform very well both accuracy and efficiency-wise. So you've helped me keep on keeping on with the same calibers I've settled into over the years. Good job collecting the information, and thanks much for sharing it with us.

 

[elkaholic]

Jeff......MAN, I wish I could have 70 elk to test bullets on! Sounds like my dream job. I don't discount what you sat at all. What did you find with the wound channels between the 215 and 195? Just curious as to the whys. I like to deal in forensics

 

[Broz]

Jeff......MAN, I wish I could have 70 elk to test bullets on! Sounds like my dream job. I don't discount what you sat at all. What did you find with the wound channels between the 215 and 195? Just curious as to the whys. I like to deal in forensics

Wound channels were a little smaller, but I personally attribute it to less fragments and energy. This whole deal was a real head scratcher for me. I even called a few trusted friends / well known gunsmiths, to discuss this very topic. I was surprised to hear they have seen the very same thing. Even a couple that build a great deal of 7mm's. At this point I just had to accept it for what it was. I really don't completely understand it. But so many samples of data don't lie. Then the fact others I fully trust seen the same thing, well I just have to go with it.

Being there for the 70 kills, that was on this ranch alone. Add about another 6 to 10 on other ranches/ hunts. Careful what you wish for. After pulling the insides of 50+ myself, next season will come too soon for this guy.

Jeff

 

[elkaholic]

Wound channels were a little smaller, but I personally attribute it to less fragments and energy. This whole deal was a real head scratcher for me. I even called a few trusted friends / well known gunsmiths, to discuss this very topic. I was surprised to hear they have seen the very same thing. Even a couple that build a great deal of 7mm's. At this point I just had to accept it for what it was. I really don't completely understand it. But so many samples of data don't lie. Then the fact others I fully trust seen the same thing, well I just have to go with it.

Being there for the 70 kills, that was on this ranch alone. Add about another 6 to 10 on other ranches/ hunts. Careful what you wish for. After pulling the insides of 50+ myself, next season will come too soon for this guy.

Jeff

Ya gotta quit gut shootin'em! Don't smell like no shot up barber shop!! Just kidding........Rich

 

[bigngreen]

It'll be interesting to see what this season brings for the 195 Berger, I know of a bunch of 28 Noslers that were built this year and their all shooting the 195 up in the 3100+ range. Matching the function of the 215 I think is a pretty tall order, it's a perfect bullet and for some reason it functions very well across a broad range of velocities from a 308 to a 300 Win.
It'll be very cool to see what the little 30 SS will do with it!!

 

[gohring3006]

I'm tagging in on a great conversation....