7mm RUM vs. 300 RUM and (PICS)....

[goodgrouper]

Dave: we have alot in common we should talk.

GG: Who cares if the 7rum burns barrels. It's a hunting rifle. Practice with a .308 and use the 7 for hunting only. I can't imagine somebody not getting 800 rounds out of a 7rum with out pushing it too hard which you don't need to. Most of the wildcats that people shoot on here burn barrels.

Links,
The problem with your reasoning is hopefully obvious now that you read it. Practice with a rainbow arcing 308 and then switch to hunting live targets with a lazer flat 7 ultra? Sounds like a wounded game attempt to me.

And I have had many a barrel burner myself. But if I practiced enough with them to give me confidence in the field, they were burned out and accuracy suffered to the point where they were not ethical to use for game. ANd not to mention, they just weren't worth the trouble. No matter how much time you have to buy, chamber, and develop loads, that is still time you could have been hunting or practicing long range shooting.

 

[goodgrouper]

. 1000 rounds may not sound like much, but for an Ultra Mag it is, and It's more of a hunting caliber anyway.

Here is that thought again. Ahh, 1000 rounds is plenty of life for a hunting gun. Well, it is for a "normal" hunting gun. But long range hunting is different. It requires (or should require) many, many more practice sessions and many more rounds fired throughout the year than a "normal" hunting gun. If you just shoot 20 rounds at a 500 yard gong per year and then go hunting with full intent of killing something "way out there", you are giving long range hunters a bad name. I'm sorry. NO ONE is good enough to only shoot 20 or 30 rounds per year and then shoot well at 1000 yards on demand anytime.

And by the way, I do this stuff for a living and I have seen guns with smaller capacities burn out barrels in half the time you are quoting. I have seen 300 ultras firecracked beyond imagination after 900 rounds and the 7mm caliber is going to be worse no matter how you slice the pie. If you got more than 1000 rounds of accurate barrel life from a Lazzeroni 7mm, you would be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[goodgrouper]

GG

While both the 7RUM and 300RUM and barrel eating machines you can definantly work up a good load and be able to practice with the gun without roasting the throat

steve

Yes, you can. But not if you're practicing a lot. I have only had my 338 thunder two years (based off of an ultra mag case) and I've already put 850 rounds through it and she is getting cracked now. And it is smaller capacity and a larger bore size than either the 300 ultra or the 7mm ultra. If it were a 7 ultra, I would be having to rebarrel right now and hope everything gets made and back to me with enough time to work up a load for the 2008 season! I don't like to do things like that in a rush! But instead, I went with a less radical round and I won't have to rebarrel for a few more seasons yet.
i.e., less radical=less headache and heartburn.

If you take care of the gun, clean it well and dont let it get real hot I would believe you should get at or over 1000rnds of bbl life out of it. My 270AM hand 800rnds down it when i took the bbl off and it is still in pretty dang good shape. the throat shows modest heat cracking but not really all that much

But remember, you have a custom barrel made of high grade metal. ANd also remember, when they start to go, they go fast.

 

[linksmechanic]

GG: I'm not trying to argue with you but I think your a little @ss backwards. For one it's a lot harder too practice with a "rainbow" .308 than a super flat shooter such as a 7 ultra. This only makes you a better shooter. Who said anything about shooting 30 rounds per year. Personally I tend to shoot 3 times a week. At 100 rounds per session with 3 rifles that's alot more than 30 a year. Why would anybody care if you do this for a living? I could be an engineer at remington but would it really matter? NO. Doesn't mean your right. Most longrange hunters that I know that aren't rich shoot mild guns for practice and save there biguns for hunting. This doesn't mean they don't practice with them. I usually put about 300 rounds down with my hunting gun and a crap load more on my others.

 

[goodgrouper]

For one it's a lot harder too practice with a "rainbow" .308 than a super flat shooter such as a 7 ultra. This only makes you a better shooter.

Links,
Not trying to argue with you either but I don't see the sense in this statement. Yes, the 308 arcs more and is good for practice. But the bottom line is that you would be practicing with something that has a totally different trajectory (drop and more importantly wind) than your hunting gun. You can just as easily miss by shooting over something as you can under it.

And better shooters are made by knowing your trajectory intimately.

Who said anything about shooting 30 rounds per year. Personally I tend to shoot 3 times a week. At 100 rounds per session with 3 rifles that's alot more than 30 a year. .

I said 30 rounds because that is what "normal" range hunters shoot. You are different and that is because you're a long range hunter I assume. Practice makes perfect and barrel burners prevent one from practicing.

Why would anybody care if you do this for a living? I could be an engineer at remington but would it really matter? NO. Doesn't mean your right.

No, but it means I have a pretty good chance of knowing what I'm talking about. I said that so you would be aware my knowledge of the subject comes from hard won personal experience and not just armchair theory. After all, I'm just trying to help others from making the same mistakes I made. There was no Longrangehunting.com when I was learning this stuff. I had to find out everything on my own.

Most longrange hunters that I know that aren't rich shoot mild guns for practice and save there biguns for hunting.

Yes, I do this for customers as well but I try to match the trajectories as close as possible. For instance, if a guy has a 300 win mag and wants another gun to practice with so he can save the barrel on his hunting gun, we build a 6br improved for him. It basically matches a 180 grain ballistic tip bullet from the win mag with 50 grains less powder and 5 times the barrel life. Then, the customer can practice without feeling guilty and only have to learn one trajectory.

 

[linksmechanic]

GG: Well spoken I respect your opinion.

 

[goodgrouper]

GG: Well spoken I respect your opinion.

And I yours.

 

[alexkeyser]

I used a 7 RUM this past antelope season in WY with my father. The rifle was actually his. Check out my post in the trophy photos section. I took a doe antelope at 632 yards with factory rem. premier ammo loaded with 150 gr. scirroco's. My primary rifle at the time was giving me problems(30-378), so I did not have time to load up any pet loads for the rifle as my father was just given the rifle from my brothers and I as a present. I felt it was much better to just get Dad out shooting the rifle so he had trigger time on it. This brings me to advantage #1, available factory ammo. This particular rig I did not weigh but it is a rem. 700 XCR, 26" factory barrel, accurized by R.W. Hart, with a brake. The rifle has a 4.5-14x44mm zeiss conquest on it with warne mounts, so it is not overly heavy, maybe 9-10 pounds max. This would meet your weight requirement, advantage #2. It does not recoil very much at all. You could definitly shoot it all day, no problem at all. My brother shoots the same rig and he weighs about 140lbs. at 5'11, he's pretty scrawny to say the least. He has also shot large rifles his whole life so he can handle quite alot of recoil. He used to hunt and target shot with his rig for 2 years before it had a brake or good recoil pad on it. but still, low recoil, just have to deal with the brake, unless you don't like them for noise reasons. which would also, fit into your requirements. Do you need an ultra mag., no way, not for 600 yard shots anyway. Will it work, hell yeah. Just look at some of the blood spatter in my pics in the trophy forum. MHO, go with the 7 ultra, you will not be dissipointed. And, you will not be limited to 600yards. That is why we all visit this site every night, right? We are always looking to stretch our legs out more each season. Listen to both goodgrouper and links, take their advise, as they both seem more knowlegable than I. analyze both sides and make a decision. worst case you will just have to build another rifle in the future, or two, or three. then you know you officially got the longrange bug good luck, AL

 

[alexkeyser]

holy crap, just realized that the thread was started back in
'04. Well I hope he has made his decision by now oh well, good to have a healthy debate once in a while that does not end ugly I guess we should all pat our selves on the back. It was informitive though I liked gg's idea of trying to match the ballistics of your practice rifle to your hunting rifle.gun)

 

[lerch]

I understand where you coming from GG and I aint tryin to argue with ya, trust me BJ and myself have had conversations like this many times. I personnally do not feel the need to have my 270AM be my constant practice rifle, while it is my dedicated hunting gun (well was until some jerk mistook me for a muley in WY this year and a jacked up the gun ducking from his bullets!!) I dont feel that i have to put 400rnds a year down it to feel confident with it.

What i like to do is find my load, for me this takes around 30-50rnds, i know alot of people wanna shoot more for a load but once i have one that will group 1.5" or under at 400yds i am happy. Once i do this i get my velocity and have exbal give me a 100yd to 1000yd drop chart. I will then take this chart and test it at many different ranges out to 1k and make any corrections needed. Once i am confident in the drops (around 20-30 rnds) i will then practice throughout the rest of the off season (15-20rnds a session) whenever i get a chance and of course rechecking drops before season begins. Now this is all around 100rnds and I will shot the gun probably some more than this so we will say 200rnds a year. again sometimes more or less but once I feel confident in the gun knowing i am shooting a overbore firearm i am able to be conservative and hold back some on how much a shoot it. Also during this time i am shooting my 6br and 308 as well as other peoples guns so i am keeping my shooting in form.

Now i know many people, my buddy BJ included, like to shoot their dedicated hunting guns alot more but to each there own. What i am trying to show is that a super magnum rifle can offer you many years of service with good bbl life if you take into account what you are shooting and be responsible with it. If you take a 7ultra or 300ultra or any big round and get her hot and shoot it like i do my 308 sometimes well ya, it aint gonna last you long!!!! but if you are responsible, clean the gun, dont get it hot, and practice responsibally with it its gonna last you a good while.

One reason why this works for me though is that once i have a load i feel confident in i dont mess with it. If it shoots around 1" for me at 400yds i aint gonna tweak it no more!!! Some people, yourself and BJ i imagine , are constantly looking to make groups a little smaller and that is good bud, frankly i just dont like loading that much !!!

I just think alot of us can get ALOT more life out of our big guns if we treat them as such, big overbore guns. I know having a custom high grade bbl will also give me some more life but still 800rnds down a 270AM is pretty impressive for it to have so little heat cracking.

Glad to hear the Thunder is still running good after alot of rounds down her.

steve

 

[sambo3006]

Dang it alex, you ruined a perfectly good debate by pointing out that the original post was 3 1/2 yrs old!--just kidding.
Good stuff here. I think that there is a line that separates true long range shots and it probably starts between 500 and 600 yds. Out to 500 yds, some sort of quick holdover system works great with a very flat round like the 7 RUM. Wind isn't much of a factor out to there unless it is pretty strong. One could probably get away with just holding into the wind if you are familiar with how much drift you get in a light to moderate wind.
Out past 500 yds (in my limited experience) is when the steepening trajectory and more importantly the effects of wind on a bullet really start to increase. I would definitely not feel comfortable engaging an animal at 600 yds and farther without intimate knowledge of the POI in varying conditions, and that could only come from lots of shooting.

 

[goodgrouper]

One reason why this works for me though is that once i have a load i feel confident in i dont mess with it. If it shoots around 1" for me at 400yds i aint gonna tweak it no more!!! Some people, yourself and BJ i imagine , are constantly looking to make groups a little smaller and that is good bud, frankly i just dont like loading that much !!!



steve

Well, I have to fess up to that. I do like to tweak the best loads possible from a gun. It is a pain in the arse sometimes though! Like this past year, I tried to help a friend find a load for a 7 ultra. To get something to work to just put 4" groups at 400 yards required every trick in the book. We finally had to use a ball powder to get enough powder in the case to get a 180 Berger up to speed. By the time we got something that was repeatable with 10 degree temperature changes and kept low deviations, we had 400 rounds down the barrel. Then he wanted to see if primer switching gave better accuracy and before we knew it, he had 500 rounds down it. Well, then July came and Utah ran 3 weeks straight in the 100's and his load went all to hell. Primer pockets were loosened and the accuracy went away in a big hurry. So then, he bought new brass and had to test it to see if it liked the same load as the old brass. So we're out in the desert at midnight to keep from boiling and we're shooting more rounds thru the ultra. Then there was another 50 rounds gone. By the time October rolled around, his gun was taking twice as long to clean because the throat was getting toasted. He had 600 rounds down it and he ordered a new barrel for Christmas!

So sometimes tweaking is surely detrimental.


Another rambling here:
The more and more guns I aquire, the more I need to shoot them to stay fresh. In other words, there was a time when I felt totally competent with my 300 win mag for long range shooting year round. But as I got more and more long range guns, I found that I got less and less familiar with my older guns. So I found a need to shoot them more before the hunts. This in turn put more rounds down more barrels. So you can see it becomes a domino effect? Or maybe a more like a dog chasing it's tail is a better analogy.
By the time my hunt comes around, I make sure I know where that bullet is going to go, but I think I miss those days when there was just one gun to grab. I guess the old saying is true, fear the man with one gun because he likely knows how to use it!

 

[Pdvdh]

I don't think there will be much difference between the 7mm and 300 UMs. Both rifles will probably have brakes installed, so recoil wouldn't be a big deciding factor. If shooting without brakes I'd take the 7mm UM just to reduce recoil and increase the ability to shoot tight groups.

The purpose of my post is more to express my agreement with Lerch that one doesn't need to shoot to the extent that goodgrouper prefers in order to be proficient at long range. By the time I've developed a good load for the rifle and established a drop chart for the rifle to at least the ranges that I intend to shoot, both on the level and over some angles slopes, I find myself proficient enough to shoot at the distances I've practiced out to. Practice rarely hurts anyone, but there's a point of diminishing returns, and that has to be factored in with the rest of life's necessities. I feel it important to have shot and confirmed zero just prior to each hunt, and that ensures some continual range practice all in itself.

If you like to shoot as much as you like to hunt, then yes at some point GG's concern becomes an overridding concern. If you hunt more than you shoot, then the barrel burners should still last quite a long time provided you shoot at a reasonable rate of fire (let the barrel cool between shots). jmo.

 

[Stgraves260]

If only shooting 600 yards even at moose. The 7-08 Rem will do the trick. With the 140 grn Berger at 2800fps has just over 1000 ft-lbs. if you must shoot the 168 grn it's 2600 fps still retains 1200 ft-lbs of energy. That's more than plenty. This info is from a 24" barrel. For every inch you add to the barrel you will add about 25fps. If you hand load the bullet will be faster too. I've killed hog out to 997yards with my 260 Rem 140grn burger bullets. It was a 290 lb hog. I shoot the 260 Rem, my pop shoots a 7-08 both with 140 grn burger VLD's. GF shoots 243 Win 105 grn burger VLD's. We kill deer, hog, yots, prairie dogs out to and past 1000 yards. All three rifles very low recoil. Look at the Rem model 700 SPS stainless. It should run about $700 and its SS like you want. I could help with scope choices if you like too. Just let me know. Hope this helps.