7mm Rem. Mag vs 300 Win. Mag

[bkondeff]

Many on here post capability to run 180's at 3000+ in standard 7mag, including Travis at Rbros, a very credible source. I believe this speed requires a longer throat possibly. If this is true would the conclusion be more of a draw relative to recoil?

Personally my goal is a true elk capable caliber to 1000 yds, not over, with reasonable gun weight, powder charge, and recoil which is what draws me to 7mm. PS. I look for 1500 ft/lbs at my desired limits. At my typical hunting elevations of 6000 feet, I look at 7mag and 7-300, mostly because I don't feel I need more, though Jeff always makes a good argument when I read his posts.

 

[Broz]

To be frank, I like them all, have owned them all and have shot them all to 1000 and beyond. The 7 REM, 7mm-300 win and 300 win mag. In fact I have owned and shot 5 of the 7-300's in a variety of barrel lengths.

I will list some of my own facts from my own notes.

When I shoot one of my 7mm-300 win mags I get an advantage over the 7 REM of 9 gr more case capacity.

The increase I have seen between the 7 REM and the 7-300 win with the same bullets and brass head stamp is between 100 and 150 fps. In a few cases more.

I have never gotten a & REM with a 180 Berger to 3000. Not even on hot loads. Maybe others can. I have not. I would welcome the info or how to do this with a factory type rifle chambering, factory type throat, and no exotic coatings unless we were to offer these things to both the 7 REM and the 300 WIN.

BUT, if a guy did , and we are hunting elk at 1000, why would we want to shoot 180 at 3000 when we can shoot a 215 at 3000? It's an elk at 1000 yards. I say hit them harder.

My 300 win with 215's at 1000 yards has an impact velocity of 1949 fps and arrives with 1812 ft lbs of energy. These bullet will expand at that impact speed and beyond.

My 300 win has taken elk at 1000 before, and several in the 850 to 950 range. It does it just fine with decent placement.

If Travis says he gets a 7 REM Mag to 3000 fps, with a 180, safely I too trust him. Then he knows something I do not. Or it makes me wonder if again we are comparing same length barrels, factory type throats, or if this is a deviation like the +P or "Bore Rider" type throats? If so to be fair we need to offer both chamberings the same advantages. My testing was done with factory types throats and my 300 win is not even a long throat rifle. The loaded rounds -.040" off the lands have an OAL of 3.630"

Recoil is a non issue for me personally. Either rifle loaded like we are talking would be better suited with a brake. Neither is a comfortable shooter for a day of long range practice without a brake. So brake them both, and I doubt anyone would notice a measureable difference from the same weight and stock designed rifles.

Bottom line, how can they ever be the same? They are different calibers, they have different bullet offerings, and the 300 win case has 9 gr more case capacity.

Jeff

 

[brentc]

I guess I'm on the other side with my personal closest comparison. I have a factory chambered 26" Rem 5r 300 WM with 215 bergers vs. My 28" pacnor barreled 7RM with 180 hybrids. My top velocity for accuracy in the 300WM with a 215 is 2850 fps. The 7RM easily produces 3050 fps accurately with 180 hybrids. Performance to 1000 is so close between the two that I'd be comfortable using either one. Recoil is a non issue for me.

 

[captacademy]

I have an Rbros 7 mag that will push the 180 VLD's at 3050 fps with 69.8 grains of Retumbo. I am using my V-2 chrono to verify the fps. It's a great rifle, but for elk at long range I turn to my Rbros 338 Rum or Allen 338 Lapua, not to say the 7 can't do it, I just like the extra HP. However, having said that, I would not have a issue shooting at an elk at 900 yds with my 7

 

[bkondeff]

I'm not in the league of most on here and do not own a 300WM.

I just see the apples to oranges analogy here. A 215 gr .308 bullet is simply longer for caliber than a 180gr .284. Simple math using (gr/284) derives a .284 bullet at 198gr to compare apples to apples. Obviously Berger has not made the longer .284 available so us 7mm homers will have to wait and concede for now.

Now, because I like to have the last word(not likely), I'll answer the "why not want the more that the 300 offers in a 215" by saying, because I don't need more. Where I am, the .284 gets me easily to where I want to be. If I bite on the "bigger is better" argument after reaching my goal, then where do I stop.....338 Edge or Lapua with 300gr?

Can't say enough how much I respect you guys like Jeff and Nate on the 7-300 post that went so long, as well as Travis at Rbros who often jumps in with very insightful info that helps guys like me learn.

I do think the OP was asking about deer at 700, so following my argument I'd have a hard time arguing you would need more than a 140gr 6.5mm at 3000fps and neither a 7rm or 300wm.

I have a new to me rifle in 7rm on its way that I intend to re barrel next year so I'll try and keep an open mind!

 

[MudRunner2005]

I'm not in the league of most on here and do not own a 300WM.

I just see the apples to oranges analogy here. A 215 gr .308 bullet is simply longer for caliber than a 180gr .284. Simple math using (gr/284) derives a .284 bullet at 198gr to compare apples to apples. Obviously Berger has not made the longer .284 available so us 7mm homers will have to wait and concede for now.

Now, because I like to have the last word(not likely), I'll answer the "why not want the more that the 300 offers in a 215" by saying, because I don't need more. Where I am, the .284 gets me easily to where I want to be. If I bite on the "bigger is better" argument after reaching my goal, then where do I stop.....338 Edge or Lapua with 300gr?

Can't say enough how much I respect you guys like Jeff and Nate on the 7-300 post that went so long, as well as Travis at Rbros who often jumps in with very insightful info that helps guys like me learn.

I do think the OP was asking about deer at 700, so following my argument I'd have a hard time arguing you would need more than a 140gr 6.5mm at 3000fps and neither a 7rm or 300wm.

I have a new to me rifle in 7rm on its way that I intend to re barrel next year so I'll try and keep an open mind!

I'm still not seeing such huge differences...

Berger 7mm 180 Hybrid - 1.529" long, G1= .674, G7= .345

Berger .308 215 Hybrid - 1.564" long, G1= .696. G7= .356

When (if) Berger introduces the 7mm 195 EOL Hybrid, which has an estimated (tested) G1 BC of .794, and a G7 of .406, the 7mm's will almost be on-par ballistically with the big .338 caliber bullets, and will dominate the .30's with ease. The only thing holding it back against the .338's in a hunting situation is the fact that it will weigh about 105gr less, therefore, it will have less KE on impact at LR.

 

[Broz]

I too feel the 195 Berger will change things. Thus the reason I stated "with todays available mass produced bullets" I also feel I have a decent understanding of what the comparison 7mm Rem, 7-300 win and 300 Win mag. is about.

Also like I said before I do like them all. But I shoot what I do for a reason. Because I have took them to the distance side by side time and time again. I do plan to revisit the 7-300 again soon. Might even spin the barrel off my 300 win and screw a 7-300 tube on to do some more testing. I will take advantage of the extra case capacity of the 300 win case. I really don't care if it is a 7mm or 30 cal. I do care about which has less drift and drop. I feel with the bigger offerings either will do what we should be doing with a 7 or a 30 so I will go for ease of bullet placement.

But for the sake of debate, if they are so close to the same, what would happen if you necked up a 7 REM to 30 Cal? Ballistically the same as the 300 win? I think not.

But when some start to toss a 300 gr 338 into the comparison. Well I guess you just need to see what I have over and over. That would be a dust cloud coming off a rock at 1500 yards compared to fist sized chunks. Or elk just hunch and stand there for a while before dropping apposed to dropping on top their tracks.

Jeff

 

[Clark]

I did not realize that the 7mmRM was shorter.
All these years, I build rifles and the mag box will take a tilted 3.34" so I seat them like that.

 

[FEENIX]

I'm still not seeing such huge differences...

Berger 7mm 180 Hybrid - 1.529" long, G1= .674, G7= .345

Berger .308 215 Hybrid - 1.564" long, G1= .696. G7= .356

Run the numbers that Jeff provided ...

If we are talking long range here, and since this is LRH I will assume we are? Why would anyone load a 150 gr bullet in a 300 win? The answer, to make it perform like a 7mm REM. with a 150 gr bullet. Load them both for long range, 180 in the 7mm REM at 2850~2900 and 215 in the 300 win. 3000 to 3050. Now we have a true comparison and the 300 win. wins with little effort. That's why they call it the 300 "WIN". More velocity, more BC, less drift and less drop.

Jeff

... and let's say it takes 1500 FT-LBS (unwritten rule) to humanely kill an elk. However, your only shot at a monarch elk of a lifetime is standing broadside at 1000 yards, which one would you rather have? gun)gun)gun)

 

[gohring3006]

Run the numbers that Jeff provided ...



... and let's say it takes 1500 FT-LBS (unwritten rule) to humanely kill an elk. However, your only shot at a monarch elk of a lifetime is standing broadside at 1000 yards, which one would you rather have? gun)gun)gun)

Well said Ed,
9 grns more powder and a heavier bullet with a greater BC. .300 Wins....

 

[Clark]

Feenix,
When I run the numbers on 7mmRM 180 Berger 2900 fps [with H1000] I get 58,604 psi
When I run the numbers on 300WM 215 Berger 3050 fps [with H4381sc] I get 77,877 psi

In terms of QL psi and belted magnums, if I work up until there is the smallest amount of extractor groove growth, a more accurate pre cursor to loose primer pockets, and then back off 4% powder charge for margin, then check it with QL, I get 74,000 psi with any belted magnum.

With temp stable powders like the Hodgdon extreme series or Allinant ARcomp, I use 4% derating.
Most powders are 6%.
Re17 is even more.

You know you are operating QL correctly when belted mag extractor groove growth minus 4% powder calculates at 74kpsi, and the velocity prediction is in the middle of the chrono string. Some jugs of powder are different than the QL library and require compensation. Jamming into the lands requires changing the start pressure. Hitting the pressure and velocity with QL takes a little practice, but it is easier than hitting targets at long range.

 

[Broz]

When I run the numbers on 300WM 215 Berger 3050 fps [with H4381sc] I get 77,877 psi
.

Have you actually loaded any 215's in a 300 win with a OAL of 3.630" or more using H-1000 in very soft brass like Norma to see where the ejector pin marks begin to appear? Or where the Fed 215 Primer starts to flatten? How about any 210 VLD's? I have,, in at least a couple dozen 300 wins for several years now. Trust me when I tell you this set up is not loosing primer pockets at an accelerated rate. Unless you consider 10 firings on soft Norma / 300 win Lapua brass excessive and the throat / barrel life is great.

Just the facts.

Jeff

 

[Clark]

I think I know where the limits are.

 

[Broz]

I think I know where the limits are.

You were questioning the pressure being safe in my 300 win mag loads. That is a 7 REM case you took dangerously too far. I only asked of your experience with the combination in question to show you that I am not running unsafe loads. Not to prove you were.

Sorry I do not have any 300 win cases like that to show you.


Never mind, have a great evening.

Jeff