6.5mm Craze? 264WM vs 6.5 SAUM vs 6.5 PRC?

[Rick Richard]

Yep, his call. I still love my 6.5saum. I'm 68 and this is my all time fav rifle/caliber.
That's not to say aren't other great calibers, the saum fits perfectly to where and what I hunt.

I had one, but rebarreled it to a 300 WSM. I did kill a few deer and one elk with it, but felt like I was just a bit under gunned for elk at distance. Also, as you know brass was difficult to obtain and the stuff from Hornady was junk. All this was a few years ago.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I had one, but rebarreled it to a 300 WSM. I did kill a few deer and one elk with it, but felt like I was just a bit under gunned for elk at distance. Also, as you know brass was difficult to obtain and the stuff from Hornady was junk. All this was a few years ago.

Weird that you say 6.5 Saum Hornady brass is junk. I did some comparisons in weight, capacity, etc agains ADG and surprisingly found the Hornady brass to weigh the same and have virtually the exact same water capacity (.2 grains more than ADG).

That said my rifle won't be complete for a few months so I have no real world shooting experience with them. I will certainly run them through their paces because I push all my cartridges to their max potential.

 

[LTH181818]

Stock, barrel, scope, bottom metal, brake. cut 1.8 to 3.8 OZ off each and you have a pound. That might be 12%. Do that with all your gear and it makes a difference if you live out of a pack for 7 days...I don't actually manage my gear that close, but some do.

I am assuming you hunt more than most.

 

[Rick Richard]

Weird that you say 6.5 Saum Hornady brass is junk. I did some comparisons in weight, capacity, etc agains ADG and surprisingly found the Hornady brass to weigh the same and have virtually the exact same water capacity (.2 grains more than ADG).

That said my rifle won't be complete for a few months so I have no real world shooting experience with them. I will certainly run them through their paces because I push all my cartridges to their max potential.

Junk in the sense that the primer pockets would open up after at most two firings before they would not hold a primer.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Junk in the sense that the primer pockets would open up after at most two firings before they would not hold a primer.

Good to know. I'll report back when I get mine finished.

 

[Kimber7man]

Junk in the sense that the primer pockets would open up after at most two firings before they would not hold a primer.

Might have been the issues with first run, IIRC they had problems with "soft" brass. George had Hornady make some changes and the 2nd and 3rd runs kept getting better. I stick with 61.0 H1000 with the 140 and my Hornady brass has lasted a long time v

 

[benchracer]

Until Hornady got involved, the 6.5's were all handloader's cartridges. It seems most have forgotten that the 6.5 Creedmoor was originally designed to work in an AR-10 type rifle. It was correctly dimensioned to fit in an AR-10 mag and to work well with the most streamlined 6.5mm bullets available at the time, without giving up powder capacity to do that.

For non-handloading bolt action shooters, the resulting benefit of the Creedmoor design was a turnkey package (once the rifle manufacturers woke up and started chambering factory rifles for the Creedmoor) of factory rifle and factory ammunition that offered both hunting and match ammo, made long range shooting accessible to more casual shooters, and did so with performance ammo correctly specd for a short action rifle and specd for the correct twist to work with the best 6.5mm bullets.

The 6.5 PRC offers more of the same, though it is dimensionally not a true short action cartridge. For a new shooter, it is hard to argue against either the Creedmoor or the PRC. They represent the easy button when it comes to accuracy and long range performance in factory rifles, using factory ammunition.

The .264 WM is a cartridge that will reward an advanced handloader with a factory rifle. I say advanced handloader because published data for the .264 WM is garbage. For the .264 WM to be worthwhile, it has to be treated like a wildcat cartridge, requiring the shooter who loads for it to be advanced enough to map his own load data. In a factory rifle, the .264 WM is still limited by its standard 9 twist barrel. It will still work with 140 VLD type bullets, but is not compatible with the latest and greatest 6.5mm bullets available.

It took a long time for powder technology to catch up with the case capacity available in the .264 WM. Even using the slowest of powders (such as Retumbo, RL-33, and VV N570), the .264 WM will still pressure out before running out of case capacity. With 140 VLD's, the .264 WM easily produces accuracy @ 3150 from a 26" barrel, at mild pressure levels.

Brass options have gotten much better than they once were. Forget .264 WM brass. ADG or Peterson 7mm Rem Mag brass is the way to go. Neck it down and go. Nothing more is required. For an advanced handloader, the .264 WM is the most direct path to this level of performance in a 6.5mm bore in a factory rifle.

In a full custom rifle, pick the bullet you want to shoot, how fast you want to shoot it, pick the right case capacity to get you where you want to be, and choose an appropriate barrel length. Anything on the 6.5 menu will make you happy if the specs are chosen properly.

On to personal preferences...

My personal taste in rifles leads me to not care about cartridge fit in short actions. With that in mind, my pick among the smaller cased 6.5's is the original 6.5x55. In a modern mauser length action, it has no OAL issues with any of the best available bullets. Loaded accordingly, it gives up less than 100 fps to the 6.5-284 Norma in the same barrel length. It's easy to tune. Top notch components are easy to source.

Among the fast 6.5's, my choice is the .264 WM. Current Winchester Model 70's chambered for it are a joy to shoot and carry. It is easy to source quality components and is easy to tune. With 140 class VLD type bullets, it is an excellent coyote, deer, and antelope cartridge in windy, open country.

I do not consider ANY 6.5 to be a legitimate elk cartridge, but I would not hesitate to load 140 Nosler Partitions and go elk hunting. An 8 twist aftermarket barrel and 150+ class bullets might do more to move the .264 toward being a legit elk cartridge, but there are other rifles in my safe that would be my first choice for that application.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Until Hornady got involved, the 6.5's were all handloader's cartridges. It seems most have forgotten that the 6.5 Creedmoor was originally designed to work in an AR-10 type rifle. It was correctly dimensioned to fit in an AR-10 mag and to work well with the most streamlined 6.5mm bullets available at the time, without giving up powder capacity to do that.

For non-handloading bolt action shooters, the resulting benefit of the Creedmoor design was a turnkey package (once the rifle manufacturers woke up and started chambering factory rifles for the Creedmoor) of factory rifle and factory ammunition that offered both hunting and match ammo, made long range shooting accessible to more casual shooters, and did so with performance ammo correctly specd for a short action rifle and specd for the correct twist to work with the best 6.5mm bullets.

The 6.5 PRC offers more of the same, though it is dimensionally not a true short action cartridge. For a new shooter, it is hard to argue against either the Creedmoor or the PRC. They represent the easy button when it comes to accuracy and long range performance in factory rifles, using factory ammunition.

The .264 WM is a cartridge that will reward an advanced handloader with a factory rifle. I say advanced handloader because published data for the .264 WM is garbage. For the .264 WM to be worthwhile, it has to be treated like a wildcat cartridge, requiring the shooter who loads for it to be advanced enough to map his own load data. In a factory rifle, the .264 WM is still limited by its standard 9 twist barrel. It will still work with 140 VLD type bullets, but is not compatible with the latest and greatest 6.5mm bullets available.

It took a long time for powder technology to catch up with the case capacity available in the .264 WM. Even using the slowest of powders (such as Retumbo, RL-33, and VV N570), the .264 WM will still pressure out before running out of case capacity. With 140 VLD's, the .264 WM easily produces accuracy @ 3150 from a 26" barrel, at mild pressure levels.

Brass options have gotten much better than they once were. Forget .264 WM brass. ADG or Peterson 7mm Rem Mag brass is the way to go. Neck it down and go. Nothing more is required. For an advanced handloader, the .264 WM is the most direct path to this level of performance in a 6.5mm bore in a factory rifle.

In a full custom rifle, pick the bullet you want to shoot, how fast you want to shoot it, pick the right case capacity to get you where you want to be, and choose an appropriate barrel length. Anything on the 6.5 menu will make you happy if the specs are chosen properly.

On to personal preferences...

My personal taste in rifles leads me to not care about cartridge fit in short actions. With that in mind, my pick among the smaller cased 6.5's is the original 6.5x55. In a modern mauser length action, it has no OAL issues with any of the best available bullets. Loaded accordingly, it gives up less than 100 fps to the 6.5-284 Norma in the same barrel length. It's easy to tune. Top notch components are easy to source.

Among the fast 6.5's, my choice is the .264 WM. Current Winchester Model 70's chambered for it are a joy to shoot and carry. It is easy to source quality components and is easy to tune. With 140 class VLD type bullets, it is an excellent coyote, deer, and antelope cartridge in windy, open country.

I do not consider ANY 6.5 to be a legitimate elk cartridge, but I would not hesitate to load 140 Nosler Partitions and go elk hunting. An 8 twist aftermarket barrel and 150+ class bullets might do more to move the .264 toward being a legit elk cartridge, but there are other rifles in my safe that would be my first choice for that application.

You are way underestimating the performance potential of the 264WM. My current build is a 264WM and it will eventually have a modified case but during fireforming I was getting anywhere from 3170 to 3285fps with 156 Berger EOLs and all loads were at least 1 grain under max based on Quickload info.

 

[benchracer]

You are way underestimating the performance potential of the 264WM. My current build is a 264WM and it will eventually have a modified case but during fireforming I was getting anywhere from 3170 to 3285fps with 156 Berger EOLs and all loads were at least 1 grain under max based on Quickload info.

I am not guessing. Nor am I underestimating the cartridge. I did the load work with a chrono and QL and careful measurements. With Retumbo and 140 VLD's, the center of the high accuracy node is around 3150 from a 26" barrel. There is plenty more throttle left, but not enough to reach the next higher node. Hornady AMAX's node center is around 3130. Node center with 140 Nosler Partitions is around 3100.

Brass was Nosler, 87.8 capacity. OAL's @ preferred seating depth were 3.330 (VLD), 3.320 (AMAX), and 3.245 (NPT).

More velocity could be had with RL-33, but couldn't get any accuracy out of it.

VV N570 would yield an accuracy node in the low 3200's, but not enough gain for me to chase it in a factory barrel.

Berger 156's would likely take full advantage of the available case capacity. Your results don't surprise me. I don't have the twist to run them.

 

[J.J. Weiland]

I had one, but rebarreled it to a 300 WSM. I did kill a few deer and one elk with it, but felt like I was just a bit under gunned for elk at distance. Also, as you know brass was difficult to obtain and the stuff from Hornady was junk. All this was a few years ago.

Had the saum about 6 years now. At first I bought 7 saum brass and a little 300 saum Norma brass. I don't compete so that brass lasted me quite some time. After about 7 firings some of the pockets got loose.
I then bought adg brass, 400 pieces that should carry me a while. Never had a point I couldn't find any. Btw the adg has so far proven to be excellent and they notify me when more is made. I agree on the hornady brass.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I am not guessing. Nor am I underestimating the cartridge. I did the load work with a chrono and QL and careful measurements. With Retumbo and 140 VLD's, the center of the high accuracy node is around 3150 from a 26" barrel. There is plenty more throttle left, but not enough to reach the next higher node. Hornady AMAX's node center is around 3130. Node center with 140 Nosler Partitions is around 3100.

Brass was Nosler, 87.8 capacity. OAL's @ preferred seating depth were 3.330 (VLD), 3.320 (AMAX), and 3.245 (NPT).

More velocity could be had with RL-33, but couldn't get any accuracy out of it.

VV N570 would yield an accuracy node in the low 3200's, but not enough gain for me to chase it in a factory barrel.

Berger 156's would likely take full advantage of the available case capacity. Your results don't surprise me. I don't have the twist to run them.

I should mention this is also not a SAAMI reamer, it is a custom reamer that is throated specifically for the 156 EOLs and seated at 3.550". Barrel is a 28" 8 twist Proof Carbon.

Best 3 shot group while fireforming so far is .099" with RL33. Highest velocity is with N570 and groups are still .2 and under.

 

[Equalizer]

I have a 264 WM, a 6.5 Saum (gap 4s) and a 6.5 Grendel. I like them all and pretty much all of my chamberings

When George Gardner put out the PRC it ****ed me off too. Basically pulled the rug out from under all the people who were buying his stuff.. (& funding his wildcating adventures)

The cartridges do the same thing, are both necked down versions of existing short Mag cartridges and are almost dimensionally identical. (Hence the same performance)

If he was getting brass made by Hornady for the Saum why kill its chance of being a factory cartridge by shiving it for the prc? It's because Hornady got better returns on the deal because the Saum case is Remingtons and they necked down their 30 cal (flop) short mag. So George sold HIS customers out for big red. I know I know, most everyone will go for the money and it's only my humble opinion. No hate towards George & I do like the Saum just never needed the prc it was already developed (6.5 Saum) I guess Hornady needed to make up for all the r & d on their obsolete short Mags.

 

[Kimber7man]

I have a 264 WM, a 6.5 Saum (gap 4s) and a 6.5 Grendel. I like them all and pretty much all of my chamberings

When George Gardner put out the PRC it ****ed me off too. Basically pulled the rug out from under all the people who were buying his stuff.. (& funding his wildcating adventures)

The cartridges do the same thing, are both necked down versions of existing short Mag cartridges and are almost dimensionally identical. (Hence the same performance)

If he was getting brass made by Hornady for the Saum why kill its chance of being a factory cartridge by shiving it for the prc? It's because Hornady got better returns on the deal because the Saum case is Remingtons and they necked down their 30 cal (flop) short mag. So George sold HIS customers out for big red. I know I know, most everyone will go for the money and it's only my humble opinion. No hate towards George & I do like the Saum just never needed the prc it was already developed (6.5 Saum) I guess Hornady needed to make up for all the r & d on their obsolete short Mags.

George designed the 6.5GAP4S because Hornady wasn't ready to put out the 6.5 PRC. Hornady went ahead with the PRC when they were ready, that was their choice. George didn't put out the PRC and didn't pull the rug out from us who own the 4S. He does build excellent rifles chambered in 6.5 PRC though...

 

[QuietTexan]

There is nothing new under the sun... everything is a derivative derivative derived from a derived derivative.