44 mag Lever action itch

[del2les]

I disagree. In a modern firearm with brass designed for modern pressures as mentioned. The 454 isn't really anything but a long Long Colt. You could just trim 454 brass and load to the same pressures as the 454 and it would just be a 45+P. Pressure specs are somewhat arbitrary and relative to firearms more than cartridges.

That's not exactly true. The max working pressure for the 454 is 65,000psi, and a 45 Colt is 14,000psi with a +P load in the 15-20,000psi range. A heavy 25,000psi range load should only be used in strong revolvers like Blackhawks and similar, Contenders, and certain strong rifles. Some "very heavy" Colt loads can run in the 30-35,000psi range, and yet, that is only about half of the allowed working pressure of a 454 Casull.

It isn't all about the case strength, but one must also consider the design and build of the weapon the load is being fired in. Extended usage of such loads can result in damage to your rifle or handgun, void its warranty, and may lead to other issues. Will it work a few times or more? It may, but as someone who has played a lot with high pressure loads in Contenders, after a while, signs of excessive wear and stretching began to occur. Thus, why they created the G2 and then the Encore frames.

 

[Raingull]

You unequivically could trim 454 to 45 Colt length and load just like the Casull. And in the same firearm to the same pressures.

Sure you can change the variables and things change, but that's a silly game. Point being the 45 Colt is at least as capable as the 44 Mag given a firearm that can handle a larger case (making the cylinder walls thinner) like the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan (which by the by is proof tested to 92,000psi: https://www.carpentertechnology.com/blog/most-powerful-revolvers-get-lift-from-aerospace-alloys

 

[Raingull]

While the 45 Colt in a very strong revolver or rifle and using Starline brass can perhaps "approach" the .44 Mag in performance (with very hot over-pressure loads), the 44 mag can do the same thing at standard designed working pressure and with standard factory loads. While Starline claims they have tested their 45 Colt brass to 44 mag pressure levels, for safety and other reasons, it is best not to routinely load to those levels. If that is desired, better to use a 454 Casull.

Both cartridges can handle the same range of bullet weights (usually from 200-300 grains in JHP hunting bullets), and the .44 Magnum's .429" bullet has better sectional density (for better penetration) in those bullet weights than the .452" bullet. There is also a better selection of .429" bullets for the handloader.

Also you cherry picked bullet weights to make your claim about sectional density and availability I don't even know what you based it on since the very first place I checked (Cast Performance which is probably the most popular bullet used in these calibers) lists one more bullet offering for the 45 than the 44. (Just checked Midway and they have 25 for 429 and 39 for 452 (though two were for the 450 Bushmaster which means +12 for those who are counting), and the max weights were even more divergent with the 360 grain 452 and only the 300's, also the Swift A-Frame offerings were 300 grain for the 44 and 325 grains for the 45 (as well as the 300 grain Swift A-frame for the 45 which yet again illustrates more availability)) Their 44 maxes out at 300 grains for an SD of 150 vs the 45 at 360 grains and an SD of 180. I suppose you could tell me nobodies ever heard of Cast Performance...

 

[WYO300RUM]

When I was around 20 years old I had a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 long Colt .it was the large frame like my 44 mag Super Blackhawk. I had 10 in. Contender bull barrels in 44 mag and 45 Colt. I loaded that 45 Colt to max loads the manuals showed for contenders and Ruger's. I can tell you the 45 Colt loads were as powerful or more then the 44 mag. Healthy. I wish I still had the Ruger 45 Colt. At the time I had every Blackhawk made. 22 convertible, 30 carbine, 357, a 3 screw 41 mag, 45 Colt and 44 mag. I sold all but 44 mag to pay bills. Since then I acquired a 3 screw 357 mag. A Ruger Wrangler 22. And still have a Mk lV 22 auto, GP100 357, 454 Super Redhawk and my old 44 mag Super Blackhawk. Ruger's are tough and USED to be very affordable. I still have a Ruger MK II 7 Rem mag., An SR556 AR-15 and a 10-22. I had an M77 Mk ll shot the barrel out of and a Mk l 30.06 I had and maybe shot 40 times and sold. Bad move. Yes, I love my Ruger's. Ok. I'm done

 

[freddogs]

Last summer I was hanging out at the gun store. They had a used 44 Marlin. I thought to myself, what a nice gun. I eventually brought it home. It has a low power tasco scope with see through rings. I took it to the range and shot some 350 grain loads through it. It worked fine. The loads shot fine at 50yds with irons and the scope. I may take the scope off because it looks clunky but it's a fun gun to shoot. I have lots of 44 ammo around because I have the Ruger Super Blackhawk, a Redhawk, and a contender. Sold the Ruger 4477 I had because all the other 44's shot better. I'm looking forward to seeing what the Marlin will do at 100 yds.

 

[RidgeTop]

Don't need one, but really have an itch for a 44 Mag Lever-action rifle. They seem pretty hard to come by lately. From what I've read so far, my preference list in order would be 1) Henry-side gate- steel or model X, 2) Marlin/ Ruger, 3) Older Winchester, 4) Rossi. Has anyone owned, shot, handled or otherwise had the opportunity to compare these? I already reload for the cartridge, looking to expand the usage to easily carried rifle. Thanks in advance. Best regards, Jim

I have the mod 29 and NEF, had the .44 Ruger but could not get it to cycle so sold it. I liked it but just would not work.

 

[Boss Hoss]

I disagree. In a modern firearm with brass designed for modern pressures as mentioned. The 454 isn't really anything but a long Long Colt. You could just trim 454 brass and load to the same pressures as the 454 and it would just be a 45+P. Pressure specs are somewhat arbitrary and relative to firearms more than cartridges.

This is exceedingly poor advice! Will get you Hurt not to mention damage to your revolver! There is a reason that the 454 uses rifle primers vs pistol primers.

 

[Raingull]

This is exceedingly poor advice! Will get you Hurt not to mention damage to your revolver! There is a reason that the 454 uses rifle primers vs pistol primers.

View attachment 442951

That in no way models what I said. Nowhere did I say "just load 45 Colt to 454 velocities in the cheapest 45 Colt range brass you can find in a vintage Peacemaker." But if you want to play childish games with what I said feel free (oh wait you obviously already do). Continue to believe that the extra 0.098" case length and the name stamp are what allow it to run 65,000psi vs the Colt chamber in the same gun with appropriate brass. That makes total sense.

The 45 Colt was designed in 1872. The 454 Casull in 1958. They made it slightly longer so it wouldn't chamber in the old Colts and thickened the case wall and changed the primer pocket to accomodate modern pressures. My assertions were predicated upon the same considerations being given to the Colt.

If you did to the 30-06, 6.5 Swede, etc... what you are trying to do here they would all be obsolete and relegated to the constraints of our grandfathers era. In modern firearms with appropriate components safe pressure limits apply to the firearms as much (or more) as they do the individual cartridge.

I'll stop trying to push a rock though.

 

[Boss Hoss]

That in no way models what I said. Nowhere did I say "just load 45 Colt to 454 velocities in the cheapest 45 Colt range brass you can find in a vintage Peacemaker." But if you want to play childish games with what I said feel free (oh wait you obviously already do). Continue to believe that the extra 0.098" case length and the name stamp are what allow it to run 65,000psi vs the Colt chamber in the same gun with appropriate brass. That makes total sense.

The 45 Colt was designed in 1872. The 454 Casull in 1958. They made it slightly longer so it wouldn't chamber in the old Colts and thickened the case wall and changed the primer pocket to accomodate modern pressures. My assertions were predicated upon the same considerations being given to the Colt.

If you did to the 30-06, 6.5 Swede, etc... what you are trying to do here they would all be obsolete and relegated to the constraints of our grandfathers era. In modern firearms with appropriate components safe pressure limits apply to the firearms as much (or more) as they do the individual cartridge.

I'll stop trying to push a rock though.

You are the one who made the foolish statement not me and everyone can see it.

 

[Raingull]

"Casull's passion was six-shooters, and he was determined to create a high velocity round for the .45 Colt. His goal was to achieve a muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second with Colt .45 rounds fired from a single action army style revolver with a 7+1⁄2inch barrel...The basic design was a lengthened and structurally improved .45 Colt case." Yeah, so I basically just quoted the design specs for the Casull and you think I look foolish? It must pain you to care what other people think. Grew up with the "Dukes of Hazard." You never impressed me at all.

 

[Raingull]

"Originally it was a first-generation (black powder) .45 Colt Single Action Army. Externally it wasn't all that unique looking, other than the cylinder lacked fluting. Internally, however, Casull had to re-engineer the lockwork to work with a five-shot cylinder that he machined from stock. The first-generation Colt frame was relatively low in carbon content...
Casull told me—and later actually taught me—how he added the necessary strength to the old Colt by repeated case hardening treatments until the entire frame essentially became case hardened, thoroughly infused with carbon and immensely stronger. I asked him how many old Colt frames he blew up developing the .454 Casull. He smiled wryly and said he didn't recall. Casull was like an encyclopedia of gun knowledge. P.O. Ackley, who Casull once worked for, was quoted saying that Dick Casull was the finest gunsmith and gun designer since John Browning...
The .454 Casull was spawned from the .45 Colt case"

 

[Raingull]

There now you can have the fire ant hill back Jefferson.

 

[Boss Hoss]

"Originally it was a first-generation (black powder) .45 Colt Single Action Army. Externally it wasn't all that unique looking, other than the cylinder lacked fluting. Internally, however, Casull had to re-engineer the lockwork to work with a five-shot cylinder that he machined from stock. The first-generation Colt frame was relatively low in carbon content...
Casull told me—and later actually taught me—how he added the necessary strength to the old Colt by repeated case hardening treatments until the entire frame essentially became case hardened, thoroughly infused with carbon and immensely stronger. I asked him how many old Colt frames he blew up developing the .454 Casull. He smiled wryly and said he didn't recall. Casull was like an encyclopedia of gun knowledge. P.O. Ackley, who Casull once worked for, was quoted saying that Dick Casull was the finest gunsmith and gun designer since John Browning...
The .454 Casull was spawned from the .45 Colt case"

LOL I have one of the early production guns that was made when Dick Casull was part of the company. Now go and blow smoke up someone's else's rear Mr Google. Here are a few of my 454's. Been shooting them for many years...

The bottom picture has a 44 Redhawk with a Krieger SPC tube the other 2 are 454's.

Keep digging you are only getting deeper.

 

[3chester]

"Originally it was a first-generation (black powder) .45 Colt Single Action Army. Externally it wasn't all that unique looking, other than the cylinder lacked fluting. Internally, however, Casull had to re-engineer the lockwork to work with a five-shot cylinder that he machined from stock. The first-generation Colt frame was relatively low in carbon content...
Casull told me—and later actually taught me—how he added the necessary strength to the old Colt by repeated case hardening treatments until the entire frame essentially became case hardened, thoroughly infused with carbon and immensely stronger. I asked him how many old Colt frames he blew up developing the .454 Casull. He smiled wryly and said he didn't recall. Casull was like an encyclopedia of gun knowledge. P.O. Ackley, who Casull once worked for, was quoted saying that Dick Casull was the finest gunsmith and gun designer since John Browning...
The .454 Casull was spawned from the .45 Colt case"

Wow!! You must be Dave Campbell, the author of the August 7, 2021 American Rifle article. Think i'd skipD over that but, good read.Thanks ,for the almost word for word copy. Great work . Thanks for the republishing.