308 enough for brown/polar bear?

Just a world of difference between a "killing rifle" a dedicated "hunting rifle" and an honest to God "stopping rifle" or backup rifle.

Every dang time this subject comes up someone points out that an indigenous berry picker named Bella Twin in the 50s by slave lake Alberta killed one of the largest grizzly bears ever recorded with a single shot Cooey .22 lr. It was acting ever more brash and aggressive and she shot it in the side of the head, it dropped, and she shot it like 8 or 9 more times in the head to "pay the insurance" as she put it. Wise lady. In the right hands under the right circumstances a .22 rimfire is a killing rifle. It is not a big game hunting rifle or a stopping rifle in any stretch of the imagination. Same goes for the .22 centerfires, it is always pointed out that many sustenance hunters kill everything under the sun with a .223. That's not the same as getting to go on the hunt of a lifetime and choosing to bring such a piddly gun haha.

The .308 is a good, if boring, all purpose hunting rifle. Most anything can be killed relatively swiftly with one, Lord knows the old ivory hunters killed a pile of elephants with 7x57, 303 British, 8x57, and I think even the 6.5x55 with heavy for caliber round nose FMJs taking brain shots. The .308 is comparable to any of those in its utility and power level. Every year numerous large moose and elk are hunted without any fuss or complications or underkill issues. We've all heard stories of the anomalously huge 2000 pound bears, and they have existed (biggest polar bear ever recorded north of 2200 pounds, no such thing as overkill facing a beast like that). But those are twice the size of anything commonly encountered, and if a cartridge and bullet combo is up for clean killing chest shots on a full grown bull moose or elk it's not like a bear that almost certainly weights less than the moose by a fair bit
Is going to be immune to it. The .308 should be fine as a hunting rifle for bears of any kind.

But now for the kicker…what if you don't get a perfect shot, and you don't have the option of passing it up like an elk or a moose BECAUSE ITS COMING YOUR WAY.

Then I'd sure want a lot more gun than a .308. It's no stopping rifle. Neither is the .300 win mag, BUT I will say I've seen it numerous places where guides are asked what they recommend ad a minimum ideal caliber for hunting these things and the most common answer has been a .300 win mag with a premium stout 180 grain or heavier bullet. In my limited observations and listening to others, there is something of a new level of terminal ballistic authority that begins to be realized by the magnum .30 calibers that you do not get with the slower .30s or smaller bore diameters.
 
Do not worry about other people's thoughts; ask yourself if it is enough to save your life.

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At the range depicted in this photograph I'm leaning towards a 3.5" chambered 12 ga coach gun haha…fastest two shots on earth and I don't think discussions about magazine capacity have much relevance to a critter like this that's certainly isn't going to give you time to hit him over and over and over again. A Brenekke type slug in one barrel, the 3.5" 18 pellet 00 buck load in the other.

A clean pair of shorts would also be required, maybe alongside backup guns we should discuss back up briefs! 🤣
 
Just a world of difference between a "killing rifle" a dedicated "hunting rifle" and an honest to God "stopping rifle" or backup rifle.

Every dang time this subject comes up someone points out that an indigenous berry picker named Bella Twin in the 50s by slave lake Alberta killed one of the largest grizzly bears ever recorded with a single shot Cooey .22 lr. It was acting ever more brash and aggressive and she shot it in the side of the head, it dropped, and she shot it like 8 or 9 more times in the head to "pay the insurance" as she put it. Wise lady. In the right hands under the right circumstances a .22 rimfire is a killing rifle. It is not a big game hunting rifle or a stopping rifle in any stretch of the imagination. Same goes for the .22 centerfires, it is always pointed out that many sustenance hunters kill everything under the sun with a .223. That's not the same as getting to go on the hunt of a lifetime and choosing to bring such a piddly gun haha.

The .308 is a good, if boring, all purpose hunting rifle. Most anything can be killed relatively swiftly with one, Lord knows the old ivory hunters killed a pile of elephants with 7x57, 303 British, 8x57, and I think even the 6.5x55 with heavy for caliber round nose FMJs taking brain shots. The .308 is comparable to any of those in its utility and power level. Every year numerous large moose and elk are hunted without any fuss or complications or underkill issues. We've all heard stories of the anomalously huge 2000 pound bears, and they have existed (biggest polar bear ever recorded north of 2200 pounds, no such thing as overkill facing a beast like that). But those are twice the size of anything commonly encountered, and if a cartridge and bullet combo is up for clean killing chest shots on a full grown bull moose or elk it's not like a bear that almost certainly weights less than the moose by a fair bit
Is going to be immune to it. The .308 should be fine as a hunting rifle for bears of any kind.

But now for the kicker…what if you don't get a perfect shot, and you don't have the option of passing it up like an elk or a moose BECAUSE ITS COMING YOUR WAY.

Then I'd sure want a lot more gun than a .308. It's no stopping rifle. Neither is the .300 win mag, BUT I will say I've seen it numerous places where guides are asked what they recommend ad a minimum ideal caliber for hunting these things and the most common answer has been a .300 win mag with a premium stout 180 grain or heavier bullet. In my limited observations and listening to others, there is something of a new level of terminal ballistic authority that begins to be realized by the magnum .30 calibers that you do not get with the slower .30s or smaller bore diameters.
Great post, very informative.

Why I'm so interested in the 308 in semi-auto is sort of like the theory people have how they prefer 15+ rounds of 10mm vs 5-6 rounds of 454 Casull. You can put 20+ rounds of 308 Barnes TTSX in the AK, Scar 17, FN FAL or HK G3/PTR-91 vs one shot of 375 Ruger from a bolt-action rifle. I mention one shot in the bolt-action because realistically, how many shots will anyone get off in a bolt action chambered in 375 Ruger or any bolt action during a close encounter charge?
 
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How effective was the 308 against the brown bear you shot? Was one shot enough to anchor it or severely limit it's movement or did it require multiple shots to get it to slow it down?

For specific ammo in 308 against large game, is the Barnes TTSX and Swift AFrame the best?


I never claimed to have shot a "Brown" with a .308 (assuming a .308 Win.) or any other cartridge…..but have shot several large bodied animals (elk &moose) .

So, I have a general idea about the capabilities of mono bullets on large animals. The big bears may be a bit more tenacious for life…..but are still hide, muscle, and bone.

I would lean more toward the monos (in my experience the Barnes bullets). But would consider a heavier (180 or 200 grain) Nosler Partition, Swift A Frame, or even the RWS H- Mantel (the original Partition or Swift A Frame) if available.

Obviously, with no actual experience on "Browns" or Polars……this is only an opinion!

Also, to comment on your wanting a semi-auto. "Spray and Pray" very rarely substitutes one well placed shot.

Our military has used the "Spray and Pray" method for the average soldier, while the highly trained……generally a bolt gun.

For an better explanation of "Spray and Pray" statistics…….research the approximate # of rounds fired vs the # of incapacitating hits during the Viet Nam War. The numbers will astound you! memtb
 
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At the range depicted in this photograph I'm leaning towards a 3.5" chambered 12 ga coach gun haha…fastest two shots on earth and I don't think discussions about magazine capacity have much relevance to a critter like this that's certainly isn't going to give you time to hit him over and over and over again. A Brenekke type slug in one barrel, the 3.5" 18 pellet 00 buck load in the other.

A clean pair of shorts would also be required, maybe alongside backup guns we should discuss back up briefs! 🤣
Might as well skip the briefs and bring a backup bucket or wear a kilt!🤣🤣🤣

In my very limited experience with charging cattle, American Buffalo, feral hogs and ex wives.......its not the cartridge as much as the platform that I question. I want something with glock level reliability!!! I also want something that can be used as a solid club if in the off chance it goes to that. Semiauto and polar bear just don't go together for me. Especially anything in 308win and AR. I've seen too many ridiculously overpriced AR10'S not cycle plus they are so heavy!

I think a lever action with a red dot in 45cal flavor is where I'd start.
 
I'd respectfully disagree with the last part. The only difference between a 308 and 300wm is velocity. That's not a factor with close range bear encounters between those 2. In addition, in Africa when it's imperative to be able to drop very big charging animals quickly, most of the big iron is driving a big bullet at relatively moderate speed, 2000-2200 fps at the muzzle and ~500gr bullets.
Just a world of difference between a "killing rifle" a dedicated "hunting rifle" and an honest to God "stopping rifle" or backup rifle.

Every dang time this subject comes up someone points out that an indigenous berry picker named Bella Twin in the 50s by slave lake Alberta killed one of the largest grizzly bears ever recorded with a single shot Cooey .22 lr. It was acting ever more brash and aggressive and she shot it in the side of the head, it dropped, and she shot it like 8 or 9 more times in the head to "pay the insurance" as she put it. Wise lady. In the right hands under the right circumstances a .22 rimfire is a killing rifle. It is not a big game hunting rifle or a stopping rifle in any stretch of the imagination. Same goes for the .22 centerfires, it is always pointed out that many sustenance hunters kill everything under the sun with a .223. That's not the same as getting to go on the hunt of a lifetime and choosing to bring such a piddly gun haha.

The .308 is a good, if boring, all purpose hunting rifle. Most anything can be killed relatively swiftly with one, Lord knows the old ivory hunters killed a pile of elephants with 7x57, 303 British, 8x57, and I think even the 6.5x55 with heavy for caliber round nose FMJs taking brain shots. The .308 is comparable to any of those in its utility and power level. Every year numerous large moose and elk are hunted without any fuss or complications or underkill issues. We've all heard stories of the anomalously huge 2000 pound bears, and they have existed (biggest polar bear ever recorded north of 2200 pounds, no such thing as overkill facing a beast like that). But those are twice the size of anything commonly encountered, and if a cartridge and bullet combo is up for clean killing chest shots on a full grown bull moose or elk it's not like a bear that almost certainly weights less than the moose by a fair bit
Is going to be immune to it. The .308 should be fine as a hunting rifle for bears of any kind.

But now for the kicker…what if you don't get a perfect shot, and you don't have the option of passing it up like an elk or a moose BECAUSE ITS COMING YOUR WAY.

Then I'd sure want a lot more gun than a .308. It's no stopping rifle. Neither is the .300 win mag, BUT I will say I've seen it numerous places where guides are asked what they recommend ad a minimum ideal caliber for hunting these things and the most common answer has been a .300 win mag with a premium stout 180 grain or heavier bullet. In my limited observations and listening to others, there is something of a new level of terminal ballistic authority that begins to be realized by the magnum .30 calibers that you do not get with the slower .30s or smaller bore diameters.
 
I'd respectfully disagree with the last part. The only difference between a 308 and 300wm is velocity. That's not a factor with close range bear encounters between those 2. In addition, in Africa when it's imperative to be able to drop very big charging animals quickly, most of the big iron is driving a big bullet at relatively moderate speed, 2000-2200 fps at the muzzle and ~500gr bullets.
Oh fair enough and I did state "neither is the .300 win mag" when I said the .308 wasn't a stopping rifle. Just relaying what I've seen recommended by guides and seasoned veterans of this kind of hunting, and my observations that the .30 cal magnums do seem to me to have a certain incapacitation quality than smaller cartridges and slower 30s do not have. But again, I don't think of it as a close range stopping gun. I have a .450 Ackley for that 😁😁😁. But I do think at ordinary ranges it is a good bit more insurance than a .308. Velocity does make a difference in terminal efficacy, and bears are not the ultra thick and dense creatures that some of the African dangerous game you mention are.

I could say that the only difference between a .22 LR and a .223 is velocity therefore one doesn't really have much advantage over the other when it comes to stopping power….

But again of course I ultimately do agree with you, I wouldn't see any .30 cal as being a dedicated dangerous game "stopping rifle" even as they are great "hunting rifles". Would opt for a bigger wider bullet too.
 
Might as well skip the briefs and bring a backup bucket or wear a kilt!🤣🤣🤣

In my very limited experience with charging cattle, American Buffalo, feral hogs and ex wives.......its not the cartridge as much as the platform that I question. I want something with glock level reliability!!! I also want something that can be used as a solid club if in the off chance it goes to that. Semiauto and polar bear just don't go together for me. Especially anything in 308win and AR. I've seen too many ridiculously overpriced AR10'S not cycle plus they are so heavy!

I think a lever action with a red dot in 45cal flavor is where I'd start.


Ooooooh the capitalist in me sees a market for tactical bear hunting kilts now 🤑

Nothing manlier than that 🤣
 
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My 2nd cousin lives in back country Alaska. Two track to his place and bit of a recluse. He owns 2 rifles. Both are Winchester M70 .375 H&H. One stationed at front door and one stationed at back door. His mom visited him and left after 2 days into 10 day visit. She told me she could not take the stress of having bears around 100% of time. Solid oak doors, small windows shuttered with steel at night. She walked out on porch with coffee first morning and got chewed out for not having him with rifle on porch. So in his world of big bears 24/7/365, he prefers a cartridge that has the horsepower to get their attention.

He lives with big bears 24/7 and feels the 375 H&H is bare minimum. I trust his opinion.
 
Great post, very informative.

Why I'm so interested in the 308 in semi-auto is sort of like the theory people have how they prefer 15+ rounds of 10mm vs 5-6 rounds of 454 Casull. You can put 20+ rounds of 308 Barnes TTSX in the AK, Scar 17, FN FAL or HK G3/PTR-91 vs one shot of 375 Ruger from a bolt-action rifle. I mention one shot in the bolt-action because realistically, how many shots will anyone get off in a bolt action chambered in 375 Ruger or any bolt action during a close encounter charge?







Fair points but I'd still take the .375 - and I'm actually pretty dang fast on the follow up shot with my 450 Ackley. I don't know if it's realistic to worry about 3+ shots if we're talking true close range encounters.

Semi automatics have been around for a VERY long time now. As have leverguns and pumps, all of which are faster in their rate of fire than a bolt action or a break action (beyond two rounds). And to this day SERIOUS stopping rifles for big animals that have both the capability AND the mentality to maul, maim, bite, open like a tin can, crush, gore/impale, flatten, or otherwise end you are invariably big powerful bolt actions and double rifles. I think it might be worth pausing to ask why that is. It's not just tradition or because semis have legal restrictions some places…it's to hell and back reliability and dependability above all else. The advantages of a modern semi auto don't really apply here, this isn't a prolonged firefight or anything where "suppressive fire" to create cover is relevant. This is potentially one nail-biter of an encounter that's all over in seconds. One, maybe two shots are all-important.

The big bore British double rifles aren't just a statement about wealth or craftsmanship, they're the fastest two shots on earth and have well proved themselves to be among the best tools for that kind of job. Pumps, semis, and levers never proved superior for this.[/QUOTE]
 
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Fair points but I'd still take the .375 - and I'm actually pretty dang fast on the follow up shot with my 450 Ackley. I don't know if it's realistic to worry about 3+ shots if we're talking true close range encounters.

Semi automatics have been around for a VERY long time now. As have leverguns and pumps, all of which are faster in their rate of fire than a bolt action or a break action (beyond two rounds). And to this day SERIOUS stopping rifles for big animals that have both the capability AND the mentality to maul, maim, bite, open like a tin can, crush, gore/impale, flatten, or otherwise end you are invariably big powerful bolt actions and double rifles. I think it might be worth pausing to ask why that is. It's not just tradition or because semis have legal restrictions some places…it's to hell and back reliability and dependability above all else. The advantages of a modern semi auto don't really apply here, this isn't a prolonged firefight or anything where "suppressive fire" to create cover is relevant. This is potentially one nail-biter of an encounter that's all over in seconds. One, maybe two shots are all-important.

The big bore British double rifles aren't just a statement about wealth or craftsmanship, they're the fastest two shots on earth and have well proved themselves to be among the best tools for that kind of job. Pumps, semis, and levers never proved superior for this.
[/QUOTE]
While you are spot on right, these threads inevitably end up being a waste of time and breath. Until someone has been in tight situations often enough to actually know what works best, there will always be those who wish to opine and armchair philosophise, despite having zero indepth experience. Evem once or twice isnt a good guage. Two centuries of PHs doing this every day is lost on the internet crowd cause their mommies told them their opinions are just as valid as everyone elses, and everyone gets a Gold Star for participation. Then you get the smoke trolls and outright liars that feel the need to jump in, only to be bested by a moron that advocates intentionally wounding bears, and claims to have done so twice, rather than killing them as a detterent, that is perfectly acceptable.

I think at this stage I have read as much as I care to on this topic. Stay safe all.
 
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