308 enough for brown/polar bear?

[Critter Picker]

If I had to face a big,dangerous bear with a .308 I personally would prefer a H&K 770.

If one was attacking head on and one from the right,you could shoot the head on bear with the bullet and the right one with the brass.

Make sure you're wearing a kilt!

 

[memtb]

Not sure why the last reply didn't put your quote separate from mine, but again, nothing more entertaining than a bear thread!!!

I often think that we're often being "baited" and I can "bear ly" get through them without going catatonic and withdrawing into a "hibernating"stage memtb

 

[Arken7mm]

Fair points but I'd still take the .375 - and I'm actually pretty dang fast on the follow up shot with my 450 Ackley. I don't know if it's realistic to worry about 3+ shots if we're talking true close range encounters.

Semi automatics have been around for a VERY long time now. As have leverguns and pumps, all of which are faster in their rate of fire than a bolt action or a break action (beyond two rounds). And to this day SERIOUS stopping rifles for big animals that have both the capability AND the mentality to maul, maim, bite, open like a tin can, crush, gore/impale, flatten, or otherwise end you are invariably big powerful bolt actions and double rifles. I think it might be worth pausing to ask why that is. It's not just tradition or because semis have legal restrictions some places…it's to hell and back reliability and dependability above all else. The advantages of a modern semi auto don't really apply here, this isn't a prolonged firefight or anything where "suppressive fire" to create cover is relevant. This is potentially one nail-biter of an encounter that's all over in seconds. One, maybe two shots are all-important.

The big bore British double rifles aren't just a statement about wealth or craftsmanship, they're the fastest two shots on earth and have well proved themselves to be among the best tools for that kind of job. Pumps, semis, and levers never proved superior for this.

I partly agree...

If I was in Africa, I would take multiple guns for specific animals. Cape Buffalo would be a 375 minimum. But, I would NOT want a bolt action against a Lion or Hyena if it ran at me full speed or ambushed me, I'd want lots of rounds off quickly with lots of shots on target and also a handgun for backup on a lanyard.

Why do so many in Alaska and the lower 48 prefer the 10mm over 44 mag, 454 Casull or 500 S&W? The theories don't add up. People want the very heavy rifle but favor smaller less powerful handguns. A S&W 500 revolver can anchor a Cape Buffalo with one shot as has been done with the 440gr hard cast. A lot of people complain that a 4" inch revolver in a chest holster is too heavy for them but want to carry a heavy bolt action rifle chambered in 300 WM, 338, 375, 416.

I still don't know how one can get off a second shot with a bolt action, pump shot gun or lever gun if caught off guard and a bear charges them and knocks them to the ground and their first shot is a miss. My whole point is what to do when the first shot is a miss and often as has been written about during bear attacks is the first shot is often a miss and the shooter is falling back onto the ground. That's what I'm concerned about is the high probability of a first shot miss and being on my back, so I want as quick a follow up shot as possible in semi-auto or double action revolver that does not require other movements and functions to get the 2nd shot off.

At the beginning of this thread I should have first mentioned about that "first shot miss" during a bear charge and the shooter falling back and shooting his foot. That's why my theory of a semi-auto rifle in 308 with 20+ rounds is something I want to look more into.

I also thought about motor skill function during high stress situations, when someone or something charges you, catches out off guard the sense of fear, horror and terror. You fall back either by losing your footing or the animal knocks you down and you either didn't get the first shot off or the first shot is a miss. Just walking around your house and a friend or family member scares you as a joke when they're hiding around the corner can make you jump, imagine a bear charge.

 

[bfarms]

Why do so many in Alaska and the lower 48 prefer the 10mm over 44 mag, 454 Casull or 500 S&W? The theories don't add up. People want the very heavy rifle but favor smaller less powerful handguns. A S&W 500 revolver can anchor a Cape Buffalo with one shot as has been done with the 440gr hard cast. A lot of people complain that a 4" inch revolver in a chest holster is too heavy for them but want to carry a heavy bolt action rifle chambered in 300 WM, 338, 375, 416.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they prefer the 10mm because the follow up shots would be easier and faster. All the hp in the world won't matter if you can hit it. I'd say in a situation like that you are gonna want plenty in the mag no matter how good you can shoot.


I'd take a 300wm, 338,375,416 over a 308 anyday for a hunting rifle. But if I was worried about a bear eating me and wanted something for protection and fast follow up shots it would be a 10mm.
The only 308 in my gun safe is one with pink camo my wife bought years ago and she can keep it

 

[Arken7mm]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they prefer the 10mm because the follow up shots would be easier and faster.
If a you are comfortable with a 308 saving your life then a 6.5 creedmoor will do just as good…..

I'd take a 300wm, 338,375,416 over a 308 anyday for a hunting rifle. But if I was worried about a bear eating me and wanted something for protection and fast follow up shots it would be a 10mm.

Yes. Too bad the Desert Eagle isn't more reliable and dependable, it would have been a great woods gun in 44 mag or 50 AE.

 

[memtb]

The only 308 in my gun safe is one with pink camo my wife bought years ago and she can keep it

That's rather "sexist" isn't it! memtb

 

[DUCKMAN11]

I partly agree...

If I was in Africa, I would take multiple guns for specific animals. Cape Buffalo would be a 375 minimum. But, I would NOT want a bolt action against a Lion or Hyena if it ran at me full speed or ambushed me, I'd want lots of rounds off quickly with lots of shots on target and also a handgun for backup on a lanyard.

Why do so many in Alaska and the lower 48 prefer the 10mm over 44 mag, 454 Casull or 500 S&W? The theories don't add up. People want the very heavy rifle but favor smaller less powerful handguns. A S&W 500 revolver can anchor a Cape Buffalo with one shot as has been done with the 440gr hard cast. A lot of people complain that a 4" inch revolver in a chest holster is too heavy for them but want to carry a heavy bolt action rifle chambered in 300 WM, 338, 375, 416.

I still don't know how one can get off a second shot with a bolt action, pump shot gun or lever gun if caught off guard and a bear charges them and knocks them to the ground and their first shot is a miss. My whole point is what to do when the first shot is a miss and often as has been written about during bear attacks is the first shot is often a miss and the shooter is falling back onto the ground. That's what I'm concerned about is the high probability of a first shot miss and being on my back, so I want as quick a follow up shot as possible in semi-auto or double action revolver that does not require other movements and functions to get the 2nd shot off.

At the beginning of this thread I should have first mentioned about that "first shot miss" during a bear charge and the shooter falling back and shooting his foot. That's why my theory of a semi-auto rifle in 308 with 20+ rounds is something I want to look more into.

I also thought about motor skill function during high stress situations, when someone or something charges you, catches out off guard the sense of fear, horror and terror. You fall back either by losing your footing or the animal knocks you down and you either didn't get the first shot off or the first shot is a miss. Just walking around your house and a friend or family member scares you as a joke when they're hiding around the corner can make you jump, imagine a bear charge.

Might need to take the ear buds out and keep your head on a swivel in big bear country. Complacency will kill you. Proper practice prevents poor performance. There are target systems that can replicate threats "popping up" out of nowhere. That semi-auto is going to be useless when the magazine gets knocked out.

If firing off your back is your concern I think you might ought to stay out of polar bear territory. If you get knocked down by a big bear the chances are high that you will have broken bones before you hit the ground.

 

[Calvin45]

Yes. Too bad the Desert Eagle isn't more reliable and dependable, it would have been a great woods gun in 44 mag or 50 AE.

Oh good grief don't bring the desert eagle
Into this now! . Have you actually handled or shot one!? Ergonomics of a cinder block, can't imagine quickly drawing one compared to a revolver for that kind of work.

I must admit too, I don't know what I'm talking about either , I've never hunter a polar bear or stopped a dangerous game charge or anything like that. I'm just relaying that I do think it's for a good reason that those who have done these things more than once tend to trust their lives to powerful bolt actions and double rifles (and I do acknowledge the unique history of levergun .45-70s in bear country as well as good old rem870/moss500/benelli nova type pump 12 guage for pure defensive purposes) and powerful BUT wieldable revolvers and not tactical .308s and desert eagles haha.

But I haven't done either, and I say all the power to those who have the means and opportunity to try something new and see what happens.

 

[Calvin45]

I partly agree...

If I was in Africa, I would take multiple guns for specific animals. Cape Buffalo would be a 375 minimum. But, I would NOT want a bolt action against a Lion or Hyena if it ran at me full speed or ambushed me, I'd want lots of rounds off quickly with lots of shots on target and also a handgun for backup on a lanyard.

Why do so many in Alaska and the lower 48 prefer the 10mm over 44 mag, 454 Casull or 500 S&W? The theories don't add up. People want the very heavy rifle but favor smaller less powerful handguns. A S&W 500 revolver can anchor a Cape Buffalo with one shot as has been done with the 440gr hard cast. A lot of people complain that a 4" inch revolver in a chest holster is too heavy for them but want to carry a heavy bolt action rifle chambered in 300 WM, 338, 375, 416.

I still don't know how one can get off a second shot with a bolt action, pump shot gun or lever gun if caught off guard and a bear charges them and knocks them to the ground and their first shot is a miss. My whole point is what to do when the first shot is a miss and often as has been written about during bear attacks is the first shot is often a miss and the shooter is falling back onto the ground. That's what I'm concerned about is the high probability of a first shot miss and being on my back, so I want as quick a follow up shot as possible in semi-auto or double action revolver that does not require other movements and functions to get the 2nd shot off.

At the beginning of this thread I should have first mentioned about that "first shot miss" during a bear charge and the shooter falling back and shooting his foot. That's why my theory of a semi-auto rifle in 308 with 20+ rounds is something I want to look more into.

I also thought about motor skill function during high stress situations, when someone or something charges you, catches out off guard the sense of fear, horror and terror. You fall back either by losing your footing or the animal knocks you down and you either didn't get the first shot off or the first shot is a miss. Just walking around your house and a friend or family member scares you as a joke when they're hiding around the corner can make you jump, imagine a bear charge.

The theories do add up when one considers that a philosophy of handguns for defence is VERY different than a philosophy of rifles as your primary weapon. To me there's nothing irrational about preferring a smaller lighter more wieldable sidearm to a hand cannon while still insisting on as powerful a rifle as is practical and you can actually practice with and know like the back of your hand.

All handgun rounds suck compared to a proper rifle cartridge for a given task, and all handguns suck as primary weapons compared to a proper long gun. You wanna talk about missing a bunch of times, that's where big magazine capacity really makes a lot of sense is with pistols, most people can't hit the broadside of a barn with a handgun under duress compared to a rifle or shotgun and there's a ton of data to show that.

I don't think it makes much sense to compare defensive handgun decisions to primary long gun decisions, whether that's for stopping dangerous game, hunting, defending oneself from two legged varmints, combat….just not the same considerations at all.

But you want to test this out for yourself and I fully understand that and won't tell anyone else how to live their life.

 

[bfarms]

Yes. Too bad the Desert Eagle isn't more reliable and dependable, it would have been a great woods gun in 44 mag or 50 AE.

Yea. Maybe I should pack my 50bmg for a back up if I ever go to bear country. It would be great for killing the trees when I miss the bear that's on top of me. Maybe I can talk him into standing there for a second so I can beat him with it. It would still hit harder than a 308 ether way

 

[Thebear_78]

The only logical answer to this age old question. The bear proof suit.

 

[Arken7mm]

Here's a video of a 308 150gr FMJ penetrating 4 steel plates and damaging 6 steel plates in total. I would assume that would break bear and moose bone?

 

[FEENIX]

 

[Thebear_78]

Arken I definitely would not use FMJ. Several years ago while fishing at the Russian river for red salmon a guy a few hundred feet up stream of me shot a large sow brown bear with an Ak. 3-4 rounds center mass from 30 feet or so. She ran into the woods svd was later put down by fish and game. This bear was fishing not charging, the guy just got freaked out by how close she was and opened fire. Had she been after him she would have had ample time to do damage as she was still alive several hours later.

The use of a semi auto 308 isn't a bad choice but wouldn't be my first choice. Not even in my top ten. That said I know a guy who lives up in north western Alaska that uses an older DPMS lr308 for everything. Generally with blue box federal loads 150s or 180s. This includes a few big bears, one inside his smokehouse at night from a few feet away. It definitely can work.

My concern is weight and handling. Not to mention I don't generally carry one in the pipe and find a lever or even bolt quicker to rack a shell in than an ar style rifle.

Bears aren't spring loaded behind every tree, if your aware of your surroundings and practice being bear aware you generally will not be surprised by one. Instead of sneaking up on you they generally bluff and bluster a bit trying to intimidate you and can usually be talked out of charging.

I was charged once in a predatory charge. I was sneaking in to a black bear bait site hoping to catch a bear at the barrel when a smaller boar brown bear charged me. Best I can figure was it heard me splashing thru a small spring and didn't know what I was but planned on eating whatever it heard. It came running around the edge of the hill head down all four paws tearing up dirt, I swear it looked like a jack russel chasing a tennis ball. Luckily I was carrying my rifle and was able to light him up with the light mounted to my 375 rum. Between the unexpected bright light and manly screatching he stopped 15-20 feet away. We had a brief stare down until I put a round over its head into a rock wall and he turned inside out sprinting away. It was a pretty nerve wracking walk back out to the truck that night.