Black Diamond 408
Well-Known Member
I luv this place!!!! Seems to be windy here too!
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300 WSM ??? 338 Win Mag??? also what about the 308?
- Thread starter DANTEC
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Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Ric
A true "factory class" could be implemented in 1000 yard shooting.
WE started that many years ago with the thoughts that most would move on into the 16 1/2 lb and heavy gun class.
Where we messed up was, we made rules allowing custom barrels and stocks and got away from the "straight" Factory class. We also went with a 11# maximum which was a mistake. Now that class no longer exists at Williamsport as most shooters went on to the 16 1/2 lb class right away and very few shot in the 11# class.
You would be surprised what I saw a factory 7mm Sendarow do at Williamsport.
It was a 10 shot group of 8" by Walt Bryan.
If a factory class would be started, it should have a stipulation of NO factory Custom guns, 40Xs or any other rifle that is a spectial built factory rifle. A 10# limit would help here.
Just a varmint or hunting rifle allowed.
That would make the class as pure as possible and you would be surprised what groups could or would be fired if the conditions were good.
Wasn't trying to rain on your Parade at all my friend. Just stating facts and what to be ready for in 1000 yard competitions.
Take care and good shooting to you.
Later
DC
A true "factory class" could be implemented in 1000 yard shooting.
WE started that many years ago with the thoughts that most would move on into the 16 1/2 lb and heavy gun class.
Where we messed up was, we made rules allowing custom barrels and stocks and got away from the "straight" Factory class. We also went with a 11# maximum which was a mistake. Now that class no longer exists at Williamsport as most shooters went on to the 16 1/2 lb class right away and very few shot in the 11# class.
You would be surprised what I saw a factory 7mm Sendarow do at Williamsport.
It was a 10 shot group of 8" by Walt Bryan.
If a factory class would be started, it should have a stipulation of NO factory Custom guns, 40Xs or any other rifle that is a spectial built factory rifle. A 10# limit would help here.
Just a varmint or hunting rifle allowed.
That would make the class as pure as possible and you would be surprised what groups could or would be fired if the conditions were good.
Wasn't trying to rain on your Parade at all my friend. Just stating facts and what to be ready for in 1000 yard competitions.
Take care and good shooting to you.
Later
DC
Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
Ric you might do better at 1000 yards with that gun then everyone (but me) thinks.Bald Eagle 713 agged around 20" for six matchs this year with his Coyote in 270wsm shooting 135gr MK's..If your gun shoots a foot or under at 1000.Chances are you wont be last in the relay
Also saw Bald Eagle shoot 9 shots at about 9 inch's one time.His tenth shot was about 12 feet to the right.It was at the same place that the rest of his group was...Just one target over
[ 10-18-2003: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]
[ 10-18-2003: Message edited by: Boyd Heaton ]
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Ric and Boyd
The point I was making is, you cant go by a group at 100 yards or 500 yards to make a determination that the gun will shoot extremely well at 1000 yards. It just don't happen that way especially with light 30 cal bullets.
I think Ric wants a hunting rifle for 700 yard (mostly) shooting, if I remember correctly? I could be wrong on that yardage though.
Most factory rifles don't do very well and Jody will be the first to tell you that. His groups from that Coyote, were large and he didn't keep all of them on target this year and that's what he was trying hard to do.
I'm glad he went to two new custom jobs for next year. He will do outstanding because of the practice and some dissapointment he had with a factory rifle.
I wish Ric a lot of luck and hope he can come in to Willaimsport and shoot a match or two next season.
VERN
Let the fun begin----another pigeon in the nest maybe????
Later
DC
The point I was making is, you cant go by a group at 100 yards or 500 yards to make a determination that the gun will shoot extremely well at 1000 yards. It just don't happen that way especially with light 30 cal bullets.
I think Ric wants a hunting rifle for 700 yard (mostly) shooting, if I remember correctly? I could be wrong on that yardage though.
Most factory rifles don't do very well and Jody will be the first to tell you that. His groups from that Coyote, were large and he didn't keep all of them on target this year and that's what he was trying hard to do.
I'm glad he went to two new custom jobs for next year. He will do outstanding because of the practice and some dissapointment he had with a factory rifle.
I wish Ric a lot of luck and hope he can come in to Willaimsport and shoot a match or two next season.
VERN
Let the fun begin----another pigeon in the nest maybe????
Later
DC
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Sorry guys.
I double clicked my post.
[ 10-18-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
I double clicked my post.
[ 10-18-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>The point I was making is, you cant go by a group at 100 yards <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know that Darryl.Besides,my guns don't shot as good as his at 100
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Most factory rifles don't do very well and Jody will be the first to tell you that. His groups from that Coyote, were large and he didn't keep all of them on target this year and that's what he was trying hard to do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He did'nt get all 10 on the one match because he did something dumb.I tryed to talk him out of it.But,who am I...Got your ears on Jody????
....The gun was capable of doing it.......Ric,I think you would do fine...Don't know what the b.c. is on those 168's.But at 3000fps I think they would hang pretty close my 210's going 2800
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He did'nt get all 10 on the one match because he did something dumb.I tryed to talk him out of it.But,who am I...Got your ears on Jody????
Boyd Heaton
Well-Known Member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>he didn't keep all of them on target this year and that's what he was trying hard to do.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How many guys with $2500.00 customs did'nt keep all 10 on this year???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How many guys with $2500.00 customs did'nt keep all 10 on this year???
David P. Herne
Well-Known Member
Gents,
I just have one last thing to add before I'm off this thread for good. WyoWhisper is a lucky bastard!!!
Get your flu shots and take your vitamins everyone!
Dave
I just have one last thing to add before I'm off this thread for good. WyoWhisper is a lucky bastard!!!
Get your flu shots and take your vitamins everyone!
Dave
baldeagle713
Well-Known Member
I'll never hear the end of it? Now will I? YES!!!! I did some thing STUPID!
Simmons Blazer any one? Best scope ya can get fer under 200$. Didn't own it long though.
Yes the coyote could have done it BUT as the ol saying goes Couriosity killed the cat.
Bring that huntin gun on. Put all ten on all ten matches and I'll be there to shake your hand cause I didn't doit. As a matter o fact my Six match ag would have been a lot bigger had it not been for the 300WSM comming out of the shope as it did.
AS for that one shot going Whell shall we say East. That was a Hard lesson also. I think every first year shooter should use a factory gun under 11# to cut his teeth on. Makes ya appreciate a good shootin Iron when ya get one.
All I can say is we'll see.
Thanks Boyd for stickin up for me.
D.C. The Eagle is watching.
[ 10-18-2003: Message edited by: baldeagle713 ]
Simmons Blazer any one? Best scope ya can get fer under 200$. Didn't own it long though.
Yes the coyote could have done it BUT as the ol saying goes Couriosity killed the cat.
Bring that huntin gun on. Put all ten on all ten matches and I'll be there to shake your hand cause I didn't doit. As a matter o fact my Six match ag would have been a lot bigger had it not been for the 300WSM comming out of the shope as it did.
AS for that one shot going Whell shall we say East. That was a Hard lesson also. I think every first year shooter should use a factory gun under 11# to cut his teeth on. Makes ya appreciate a good shootin Iron when ya get one.
All I can say is we'll see.
Thanks Boyd for stickin up for me.
D.C. The Eagle is watching.
[ 10-18-2003: Message edited by: baldeagle713 ]
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Boyd
I must disagree with that last BC statement you made.
Theres NO 168gr that will have the BC of a 200 or 210 or 220 gr match bullet.
BC of the 168 gr----.475 BC
BC of the 210 gr ---.625 BC to .645 BC
2800 fps and 3000 fps won't make up for that much BC difference.
The smallest 30 cal bullet that has done very well at Williamsport was a 175 gr and that was only "ONCE" that I know of and remember. The conditions were very good when it was used to.
168gr don't do well and mainly because of the low BC.
The 168 gr bullets were tried with a lot more velocity then 3000 FPS in the past.
That again was the point I was trying to make for 1000 yard match shooting.
Later
DC
PS---It's really not so much keeping them all on paper for the 10 matches, it's also where you end up in the final 6 or 10 match aggs.
No factory rifle does very well in the final aggs especially when shooting agains custom guns.
[ 10-19-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
I must disagree with that last BC statement you made.
Theres NO 168gr that will have the BC of a 200 or 210 or 220 gr match bullet.
BC of the 168 gr----.475 BC
BC of the 210 gr ---.625 BC to .645 BC
2800 fps and 3000 fps won't make up for that much BC difference.
The smallest 30 cal bullet that has done very well at Williamsport was a 175 gr and that was only "ONCE" that I know of and remember. The conditions were very good when it was used to.
168gr don't do well and mainly because of the low BC.
The 168 gr bullets were tried with a lot more velocity then 3000 FPS in the past.
That again was the point I was trying to make for 1000 yard match shooting.
Later
DC
PS---It's really not so much keeping them all on paper for the 10 matches, it's also where you end up in the final 6 or 10 match aggs.
No factory rifle does very well in the final aggs especially when shooting agains custom guns.
[ 10-19-2003: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Jody
Good thought on starting with a factory rifle till the new custom gun arrives.
Most of us did exactly that----I did to.
Mine were Sendaros in the early years for the light gun class. Most everyone shot the Varmint factory stuff. Most had large groups with an occasional 8" or 9" but, those were far and few between.
Sorry you didn't keep them all on target this year. I know how much you wanted to.
Next year will be a different story.
Later
DC
Good thought on starting with a factory rifle till the new custom gun arrives.
Most of us did exactly that----I did to.
Mine were Sendaros in the early years for the light gun class. Most everyone shot the Varmint factory stuff. Most had large groups with an occasional 8" or 9" but, those were far and few between.
Sorry you didn't keep them all on target this year. I know how much you wanted to.
Next year will be a different story.
Later
DC
W
*WyoWhisper*
Guest
DC,
I know you wern't trying to rain on my parade.. I was just really pumped about the group.... I usually shoot just a 5 shot group.. then this little birdie in my head said if I post this 5 shot group DC or Boyd will post... " now shoot ten and you can come to williamsport " So I shot 4 more and they happened to go into the same hole...
Houston Boy,
yeah I got real lucky on this rifle... I know the PSS barrel won't last long though I've shot my fair share of bullets through it now.. going 3000 fps or better... next barrel with be the .308 caliber 11.25 twist for the 175's
I got this gun to be a "carry gun" .. I couldn't be happier....
she's for sale $1800!!
DC your B.C. is a little high for the 168 SMK..
I have shot a ton of them in the 308 and this 300WSM...
in all my calculations I get a "true" BC of about .440
This gun wouldn't qualify for factory class though.. it has been trued by a smith and the stock is after market...
I would definitly like to see a factory class or mayber just a lighter class than 16.5 there are alot of hunting rifles out there that are not factory but well under 16.5
Boyd,
I have been talking to Chris Matthews again... I think I'm gonna build a bigger 300WSM.. to shoot the 190's and the 210's .. we'll see what they do on the part 2 of the Antelope video!! Not sure if you could hump "Big Ugly" around th desert though.. you better build a lighter one.. about 14 lbs or so.... maybe just buy another stock...
if ya get a chance post me the specks on the "blue" 300wsm you have and how fast your running whatever bullet you are ...
seems you could get more than 2800 outta the long tube... I havn't settled on the particulars of the new one I am building.. I am pretty sure 300WSM but I want a 1200 yard deer gun out of it...
I know you wern't trying to rain on my parade.. I was just really pumped about the group.... I usually shoot just a 5 shot group.. then this little birdie in my head said if I post this 5 shot group DC or Boyd will post... " now shoot ten and you can come to williamsport " So I shot 4 more and they happened to go into the same hole...
Houston Boy,
yeah I got real lucky on this rifle... I know the PSS barrel won't last long though I've shot my fair share of bullets through it now.. going 3000 fps or better... next barrel with be the .308 caliber 11.25 twist for the 175's
I got this gun to be a "carry gun" .. I couldn't be happier....
she's for sale $1800!!
DC your B.C. is a little high for the 168 SMK..
I have shot a ton of them in the 308 and this 300WSM...
in all my calculations I get a "true" BC of about .440
This gun wouldn't qualify for factory class though.. it has been trued by a smith and the stock is after market...
I would definitly like to see a factory class or mayber just a lighter class than 16.5 there are alot of hunting rifles out there that are not factory but well under 16.5
Boyd,
I have been talking to Chris Matthews again... I think I'm gonna build a bigger 300WSM.. to shoot the 190's and the 210's .. we'll see what they do on the part 2 of the Antelope video!! Not sure if you could hump "Big Ugly" around th desert though.. you better build a lighter one.. about 14 lbs or so.... maybe just buy another stock...
if ya get a chance post me the specks on the "blue" 300wsm you have and how fast your running whatever bullet you are ...
seems you could get more than 2800 outta the long tube... I havn't settled on the particulars of the new one I am building.. I am pretty sure 300WSM but I want a 1200 yard deer gun out of it...
Darryl Cassel
Well-Known Member
Hello Ric
The Oehler program has the Sierra MK 168Gr 30 cal at .475 BC
I base most of the bullets on the Oehler program as they seem to work the best in actual fire tests.
An example of a good group at 100 meters.
I once shot a group from a Remington 760 Pump 3006 that was a 5 shot one hole that I could not believe. It was tighter then the first pic you posted if you throw out the flyer you had.
Most of those rifles would not shoot real small groups but, this one did for some reason. I used 168 grs in that to.
Would it shoot at 1000 yards---NO way, I don't care what bullet was in it.
I carried that group in my wallet for years before the paper finally went.
Anyway, I think you have a heck of a good hunting rifle and want to hear about the kills it makes over the years.
Have fun with it and bring it to Williamsport with you.
You'll probably beat Boyd with it "If" the wind is blowing.
----He's easy in the wind and he will be the first to tell you that
Later
DC
The Oehler program has the Sierra MK 168Gr 30 cal at .475 BC
I base most of the bullets on the Oehler program as they seem to work the best in actual fire tests.
An example of a good group at 100 meters.
I once shot a group from a Remington 760 Pump 3006 that was a 5 shot one hole that I could not believe. It was tighter then the first pic you posted if you throw out the flyer you had.
Most of those rifles would not shoot real small groups but, this one did for some reason. I used 168 grs in that to.
Would it shoot at 1000 yards---NO way, I don't care what bullet was in it.
I carried that group in my wallet for years before the paper finally went.
Anyway, I think you have a heck of a good hunting rifle and want to hear about the kills it makes over the years.
Have fun with it and bring it to Williamsport with you.
You'll probably beat Boyd with it "If" the wind is blowing.
Later
DC
W
*WyoWhisper*
Guest
DC,
In the wind.....
you have to
s e e the bullet
f e e l the bullet
b e the bullet...
ahhhhh grasshhh hoppaaarrrr
In the wind.....
you have to
s e e the bullet
f e e l the bullet
b e the bullet...
ahhhhh grasshhh hoppaaarrrr
